Brexit (Old)

[jfman]

Originally Posted by jfman

As we approach the end of March and the cliff edge then we will withdraw Article 50.

If Brexit was going to happen it needed a larger mandate than 52-48. The funding controversies, fake news and xenophobia aside the 52 can’t actually agree what they want.

There also needed to be a second referendum to give the Government a mandate to go forward and pursue a type of Brexit (Norway, Canada, Switzerland, other). However, we know the problem with that is Remain would win unless it was kept off the ballot.

Ideally the UK also needed a decisive general election (regardless of who won). Neither party is unified to the extent they can rely on all of their MPs to vote one way. In the example of the Conservatives they probably need 400+ MPs to not be subject to the extreme wings of the party.

The EU27 obviously aren’t unified but they at least put up a single negotiator and have all stayed relatively silent throughout the process. We have live streaming our disagreements making it clear to the EU the people sitting in front of them are in a weakened situation.

May could easily be toppled from within, Labour could win an election and Leave would almost certainly lose if the question was put to the people again. At the same time they know, and we know, that No Deal isn’t a realistic option.

One of my early forays into this thread, and two weeks later I feel like we are further from No Deal than when I typed it then.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

Indeed, legitimately, that the deal on the table furthers the cause of Irish reunification and perhaps even Scottish independence. I don't see what is patriotic about the death of our great nation.

I have touched on this in the past i.e. the English-driven Brexit risks the break up of the Union as NI, Scotland and Wales benefited more from being part of the EU and (apart from Wales) wanted to significantly Remain.

The Welsh vote was odd as South Wales especially has had a lot of EU money and I think Wales received more, as a nation, that it put in.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I have touched on this in the past i.e. the English-driven Brexit risks the break up of the Union as NI, Scotland and Wales benefited more from being part of the EU and (apart from Wales) wanted to significantly Remain.

The Welsh vote was odd as South Wales especially has had a lot of EU money and I think Wales received more, as a nation, that it put in.

Wales is now backing remain.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Wales is now backing remain.

The nations and regions can do as they wish, England prevails.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I have touched on this in the past i.e. the English-driven Brexit risks the break up of the Union as NI, Scotland and Wales benefited more from being part of the EU and (apart from Wales) wanted to significantly Remain.

The Welsh vote was odd as South Wales especially has had a lot of EU money and I think Wales received more, as a nation, that it put in.

A lot of the areas in England that benefitted most from the EU funds supported leave. Where areas like the Thames Valley that did not need the EU subsidies voted remain.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s your entire approach to Brexit

No, That’s my entire approach to you.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No, That’s my entire approach to you.

As I've said all along. you've been playing the man, not the ball. You can't hold a coherent argument in favour of leaving the European Union so have made it entirely personal as I'm the voice of the uncomfortable truth you are struggling to come to terms with.

[Dave42]

Originally Posted by jfman

As I've said all along. you've been playing the man, not the ball. You can't hold a coherent argument in favour of leaving the European Union so have made it entirely personal as I'm the voice of the uncomfortable truth you are struggling to come to terms with.

you know they lost argument soon as the insults name calling starts

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Dave42

you know they lost argument soon as the insults name calling starts

It's all quite sad really. There's no compelling argument to leave that holds up to any economic scrutiny. Which is why the focus is on democracy. Yet, it's accepted that people can't be trusted to make the day to day decisions of government which is why we are a representative democracy, and Parliament is sovereign.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

It's all quite sad really. There's no compelling argument to leave that holds up to any economic scrutiny. Which is why the focus is on democracy. Yet, it's accepted that people can't be trusted to make the day to day decisions of government which is why we are a representative democracy, and Parliament is sovereign.

So, let me get this straight. Are you seriously suggesting that democracy should be abandoned because you don’t agree with it?

Shame on you! The people voted for Brexit. Swallow that.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

So, let me get this straight. Are you seriously suggesting that democracy should be abandoned because you don’t agree with it?

Shame on you! The people voted for Brexit. Swallow that.

On the contrary, I'd be delighted to see the people given the opportunity to vote again with greater knowledge of what a future deal may or may not look like, framed against the alternatives of no deal Brexit or remaining.

The only people scared of democracy are Brexit voters who know, against all reasonable evidence, they fluked a victory within the statistical margin of error, with the age profile of largely leave voters dying every day as largely remain voters become eligible to vote. I don't have to swallow anything, I know my great country is built upon Parliamentary sovereignty.

Originally Posted by jfman

It's all quite sad really. There's no compelling argument to leave that holds up to any economic scrutiny. Which is why the focus is on democracy. Yet, it's accepted that people can't be trusted to make the day to day decisions of government which is why we are a representative democracy, and Parliament is sovereign.

And parliament overwhelmingly decided to let the people decide on leaving or remaining in EU. The people decided to leave the EU and that is what should happen, as per democracy!!!

And yes, you’re right the pathetic Remainer forcasts from BoE and Treasury, don’t pass any kind of valid scrutiny. It’s just pure fiction.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mick

And parliament overwhelmingly decided to let the people decide on leaving or remaining in EU. The people decided to leave the EU and that is what should happen, as per democracy!!!

And yes, you’re right the pathetic Remainer forcasts from BoE and Treasury, don’t pass any kind of valid scrutiny. It’s just pure fiction.

We are all aware of your opinion on the matter.

With the best will in the world, it's not going to play out as you wish. The pieces are moving into place. Parliament is sovereign. The easiest thing to do is kick it back to the people.

---------- Post added at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:02 ----------

Sam Gyimah has resigned as Universities and Science Minister.

There are alternatives that we have ruled out through our own red lines that need to be considered seriously. Even if this means extending the Article 50 deadline. The decision before us is irreversible, which is why an increasing number of MPs are demanding we explore the options from every angle. And we shouldn’t dismiss out of hand the idea of asking the people again what future they want, as we all now have a better understanding of the potential paths before us.

Clearly he is saying we pushed ourselves into this situation.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

So, let me get this straight. Are you seriously suggesting that democracy should be abandoned because you don’t agree with it?

Shame on you! The people voted for Brexit. Swallow that.

But you know that is not what he is saying don't you? The problem you have is that the 2016 vote based is on uninformed consent. The other problem is that this is not a GE where if you change your mind, you vote the idiots out in 5 years or less.

The vote was one of huge structural, social and economic significance and as such the population *must* be involved now the options are clear and present. It is quite sinister that a democracy should not allow it's population to be involved at this stage.

What is even more sinister is the relish that some express for a No Deal. The proposition that the 37% should drag the whole country down to fulfil their (to me) misplaced wishes is so wrong. This is my country, the one I and my children live in and if it is is going to be trashed, there should be a better mandate that the one currently in place.

Your indignation regarding the prospect of a second referendum is not one based on an affront to democracy. Rather it is anger: you got what you wanted after so many years and now you fear it will taken away from you.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

But you know that is not what he is saying don't you? The problem you have is that the 2016 vote based is on uninformed consent. The other problem is that this is not a GE where if you change your mind, you vote the idiots out in 5 years or less.

The vote was one of huge structural, social and economic significance and as such the population *must* be involved now the options are clear and present. It is quite sinister that a democracy should not allow it's population to be involved at this stage.

What is even more sinister is the relish that some express for a No Deal. The proposition that the 37% should drag the whole country down to fulfil their (to me) misplaced wishes is so wrong. This is my country, the one I and my children live in and if it is is going to be trashed, there should be a better mandate that the one currently in place.

Your indignation regarding the prospect of a second referendum is not one based on an affront to democracy. Rather it is anger: you got what you wanted after so many years and now you fear it will taken away from you.

You raise many valid points.

Those who scream about democracy do so in favour of uninformed vote on a given date in 2016. They do not with to extend that luxury to an informed populace of 2019. We are derided as bitter 'remoaners' as they are terrified an informed population takes their ideals away from them. Which is fine, it makes me feel better about being on the right side of history that others disagree so strongly.

Those who scream about sovereignty do so, until they realise that Parliament is sovereign above all. If Parliament votes instruct the Government to remain, and the Government ignores the will of Parliament in favour of a non-binding advisory referendum we can look forward to a) a general election and b) a Brexit vote in 2019.

I've used the term a number of times but constitutional crisis remains the most likely option. I can't wait, as a patriot I look forward to our constitution protecting people from existential threats to our United Kingdom.