Brexit (Old)

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by pip08456

I have which is why I asked Dave42 to link to the rule he and others keep harping on about. It doesn't exist.

There is also nothing to stop us entering into a Regional Trade Agreement with the EU which would trump MFN.

But what you don't seem to understand is that unless we put border checks in place, goods and people can pass freely into the uk. If we allow the eu to do that then we must allow every other wto country to do the same. So no we don't HAVE to put a hard border in place but the co nsequences of not putting one?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Same old crap: I voted Leave with no plan but it's not my fault that we ended up in this mess.

For all of history apart from the most recent few decades we have not been in the EU! For heaven's sake!

The British public were asked whether or not they wanted to leave, and they said leave. That was the discharge of their duty. It is for politicians to resolve the detail. However, the consequence of that decision must be to come out of the customs union in order to do our own trade deals. Many people may not have understood what the customs union was, but they were very clear that they were well on board with the idea of our forging new trade deals all around the world.

If we leave with no plan, there will be an Irish border. That's exactly what the Irish Prime Minister says he doesn't want. So go figure. Of course there will be a deal.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

For all of history apart from the most recent few decades we have not been in the EU! For heaven's sake!

The British public were asked whether or not they wanted to leave, and they said leave. That was the discharge of their duty. It is for politicians to resolve the detail. However, the consequence of that decision must be to come out of the customs union in order to do our own trade deals. Many people may not have understood what the customs union was, but they were very clear that they were well on board with the idea of our forging new trade deals all around the world.

If we leave with no plan, there will be an Irish border. That's exactly what the Irish Prime Minister says he doesn't want. So go figure. Of course there will be a deal.

Which have been the most war-free decades for us? Which ones have shown the highest GDP per person? The ones when we were in or out of the EU?

As ianch99 has pointed out, countries like Australia will prioritise trade deals first with the EU as it's a bigger market and the UK afterwards.

I think that the solution will be a longer transition period. It won't go down well with some Brexiters at first but I'm sure they'll agree to. So maybe a transition period of between two and three years.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Same old crap: I voted Leave with no plan but it's not my fault that we ended up in this mess.

Dead right it is not my fault that I made a democratic decision and that I would make the same one again and again!!!

And we are only in a mess thanks to the EU pissing about and Remainer MPs in government/parliament trying their damn hardest to thwart the result.... But fancy you completely ignoring this issue and thinking you can play the blame game on people, exercising a democratic right - it does not wash me with me and never will!!!

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Could you link to this rule as you seem to know so much about it?
Preferably from the WTO site.

WTO don’t require a hard border, this has been established earlier in the thread a month or so ago.

---------- Post added at 21:49 ---------- Previous post was at 21:44 ----------

Anyway there will be no further summit in November, No Deal here we come.

Next 5 months are going to be entertaining

---------- Post added at 22:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:49 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Which have been the most war-free decades for us?

No they haven’t.

Northern Ireland 1969-1998. 763 servicemen killed.

Falklands War 1982. 255 Servicemen killed

Desert Storm 1990-91. 47 troops killed

Balkans 1992-2001. 48 killed

Sierra Leone 2000. 1 killed

Afghanistan 2001 - 2014. 456 killed

Iraq 2 2003-2011. 150 killed.

Yeah no wars, ........ if you mean we haven’t fought Germany since joining the EU, then you may be right.

But neither had we fought them for the 30 years previous to joining the EU.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

No they haven’t.

Fair enough but it was a question, not an answer.

---------- Post added at 23:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:59 ----------

Little surprise here.

Russian trolls sent thousands of pro-Leave messages on day of Brexit referendum, Twitter data reveals
An army of Russian trolls sent thousands of messages with the hashtag #ReasonsToLeaveEU on the day of Britain's referendum on membership of the EU, according to new data released by Twitter.
On 23 June 2016, the day of the Brexit vote, Russia mobilised an army of trolls, which at one stage included 3,800 accounts. The fake accounts Tweeted out 1,102 posts with the hashtag #ReasonsToLeaveEU.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...ets-fake-news/

Originally Posted by Pierre

WTO don’t require a hard border, this has been established earlier in the thread a month or so ago.

---------- Post added at 21:49 ---------- Previous post was at 21:44 ----------

Anyway there will be no further summit in November, No Deal here we come.

Next 5 months are going to be entertaining

---------- Post added at 22:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:49 ----------



No they haven’t.

Northern Ireland 1969-1998. 763 servicemen killed.

Falklands War 1982. 255 Servicemen killed

Desert Storm 1990-91. 47 troops killed

Balkans 1992-2001. 48 killed

Sierra Leone 2000. 1 killed

Afghanistan 2001 - 2014. 456 killed

Iraq 2 2003-2011. 150 killed.

Yeah no wars, ........ if you mean we haven’t fought Germany since joining the EU, then you may be right.

But neither had we fought them for the 30 years previous to joining the EU.

Really?

None of those were wars, except for Iraq and Afghanistan, and we got dragged into those because of Bush Jnr, so not an EU issue.

NI wasn’t a war, it was an internal conflict based in history, so good luck blaming the EU for that (and I had a couple of detachments there when I was on the Dark Side, so saw it from both sides (being of Irish Catholic descent)).

You knew he meant there had been no Europe-wide conflicts.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Really?

None of those were wars, except for Iraq and Afghanistan, and we got dragged into those because of Bush Jnr, so not an EU issue.

NI wasn’t a war, it was an internal conflict based in history, so good luck blaming the EU for that (and I had a couple of detachments there when I was on the Dark Side, so saw it from both sides (being of Irish Catholic descent)).

You knew he meant there had been no Europe-wide conflicts.

I wasn’t blaming the EU. He said they’d been war free, which they hadn’t. Simple.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Which have been the most war-free decades for us? Which ones have shown the highest GDP per person? The ones when we were in or out of the EU?

As ianch99 has pointed out, countries like Australia will prioritise trade deals first with the EU as it's a bigger market and the UK afterwards.

I think that the solution will be a longer transition period. It won't go down well with some Brexiters at first but I'm sure they'll agree to. So maybe a transition period of between two and three years.

I trust that you are not suggesting that there will now be wars between the UK and EU countries after we pull out of the EU? That's Project Fear with rocket boosters!

I don't know why you would suggest prolonging the implementation period by another year (other than to try to drag this on indefinitely). This isn't a solution, it's just kicking that proverbial can down the road. This needs to be sorted now and the EU needs to stop putting non-existent problems in the way.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I wasn’t blaming the EU. He said they’d been war free, which they hadn’t. Simple.

I didn't. I asked the question. Also please note the adjective "most".

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Which have been the most war-free decades for us? Which ones have shown the highest GDP per person? The ones when we were in or out of the EU?

[Angua]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I think we all agree that the EU needs to improve the Democratic Deficit. It has come a long way but needs to improve.

You mention Varoufakis a lot but he does think that the EU as a project is worthwhile and he recommends we (the UK) stay within it:

Yanis Varoufakis: Why we must save the EU

Perhaps the UK electorate have been their own worse enemies in this respect, by electing people who do not want to work with other EU nations. Relegating the UK to the fringes of democratic decision making within the EU Parliament. Aided and abetted by a press that concentrates on these outsiders rather than those who are hard at work within the system.

Bit like voting for Sinn Fein and expecting them to change Westminster.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I didn't. I asked the question. Also please note the adjective "most".

Give over, you asked the question rhetorically, implying that you already knew the answer.

The point I was making that being in the EU didn’t make war free and never will. I also don’t give much credence to the argument that it is responsible for ending war in Europe.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Really?

None of those were wars, except for Iraq and Afghanistan, and we got dragged into those because of Bush Jnr, so not an EU issue.

NI wasn’t a war, it was an internal conflict based in history, so good luck blaming the EU for that (and I had a couple of detachments there when I was on the Dark Side, so saw it from both sides (being of Irish Catholic descent)).

You knew he meant there had been no Europe-wide conflicts.

That's a bit pedantic! NI was a Civil War.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

Perhaps the UK electorate have been their own worse enemies in this respect, by electing people who do not want to work with other EU nations. Relegating the UK to the fringes of democratic decision making within the EU Parliament. Aided and abetted by a press that concentrates on these outsiders rather than those who are hard at work within the system.

Bit like voting for Sinn Fein and expecting them to change Westminster.

... and there's the rub. I've said several times before, we may all look alike but we don't think alike. Brits are the product of their environment, culture and history. Our legal and constitutional order is operated very differently from that in most of Europe and all of this frames what underlies our thoughts, actions and reactions.

Not all UK MEPs are of the Farage/Hannan kind; but the European MEPS, I sense, tend to isolate the UK MEPs, probably because none of them support federalisation. The other MEPs, who don't think like us, support federalisation, none the least because then their parliament trumps ours and everyone else's. Nothing democratic about that.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

... and there's the rub. I've said several times before, we may all look alike but we don't think alike. Brits are the product of their environment, culture and history. Our legal and constitutional order is operated very differently from that in most of Europe and all of this frames what underlies our thoughts, actions and reactions.

Not all UK MEPs are of the Farage/Hannan kind; but the European MEPS, I sense, tend to isolate the UK MEPs, probably because none of them support federalisation. The other MEPs, who don't think like us, support federalisation, none the least because then their parliament trumps ours and everyone else's. Nothing democratic about that.

They isolate the fringe MEPs - because they are out of touch and not prepared to work with their fellow MEPs (same as the fringe MEPs from every other EU country). The hard working British MEPs are respected and part and parcel of decisions made. Just Joe public in the UK rarely hear about them, because the press prefer the noisy outsiders.

One example, Farage bleating about the fisheries policy changes nothing. Same big 5 UK industrial fishing companies will still control most of the fishing in UK waters after Brexit, so the small sustainable independents will continue to struggle.