Brexit (Old)

Chris was right the first time. 1939 is not a useful comparison here. Just because we're dealing with Germany and France as the main power-brokers is not enough to justify it.

I also think Chamberlain is poorly treated by history btw although that's a different topic.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Damien

Chris was right the first time. 1939 is not a useful comparison here. Just because we're dealing with Germany and France as the main power-brokers is not enough to justify it.

I also think Chamberlain is poorly treated by history btw although that's a different topic.

France is Germany's running dog. France was squashed by Germany in 1940 (albeit by military means) and it is being squashed by Germany right now. Some facts (which I hope formats reasonably):


______________FRANCE_______GERMANY
Exports________$523 billion____$1.4 trillion
Imports________$612 billion____$1.1 trillion
Unemployment___9.1%________3.4%
Credit Rating____AA___________AAA

Why are you people not acknowledging German hegemony?

Because we’re not obsessed about it, and don’t actually believe it’s a real thing.

Having lived in West Berlin for 3 years, whilst serving, and having worked in many parts of Germany in the 80s, and still have friends from that time, I don’t recognise your world view.

[jonbxx]

What Hugh said. Yes, Germany has the biggest population and economy in the EU but someone has to be the biggest

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Because we’re not obsessed about it, and don’t actually believe it’s a real thing.

Having lived in West Berlin for 3 years, whilst serving, and having worked in many parts of Germany in the 80s, and still have friends from that time, I don’t recognise your world view.

Your friends are not the German government who are pursuing the economic hegemonist policy. The people can stick their chests out and passively go along with it - just like in the 1930s and just like anywhere that the folk in similar circumstances would.

I don’t know how long ago you served in Berlin, but it is today we’re talking about and how Merkel calls the shots. You can’t see that?


---------- Post added at 09:02 ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

What Hugh said. Yes, Germany has the biggest population and economy in the EU but someone has to be the biggest

again, dodging the point. Biggest need not equate to hegemonist. But in the case of Germany, who engineered the Euro’s value to get them where they are now, their domination of the EU, certainly in the economic sense, is in the realms of the bleedin’ Obvious.

Btw, is it not bad for the remainder that Germany’s 8% surplus (in violation of the EU 3% limit) should be at the cost of deficits in those other countries who are thus beholden to Germany?

What is the matter with you people? Do you want the UK to be part of that? Can I have a direct answer to that specific question, please?

[jonbxx]

Direct answer - yes. More detailed answer, how will leaving fix the problem? With the uk leaving, the strength of Germany in the EU will be higher. I fail to see how leaving will make any improvement to this situation. Also, whether we are in or out, this is a Eurozone issue, not an EU one and we were never going to join the Euro.

What is driving the trade imbalance? There are two issues I can see - one driven by the government and one driven by the employment situation. Yes, the government could spend more on infrastructure and outsource some of this externally but that’s a political as well as economic decision. The second was the slow wage growth in Germany despite strong union representation on company boards. As unemployment is dropping in Germany, there appears to be an upturn in wage growth which will go some way to fix the problem.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Direct answer - yes.
[SEPH]: At last. You're the first to answer YES to my question: "Do you want the UK to be part of that [German hegemony]?" Note that everybody: to my surprise, jonbxx wants the UK to be under the influence of German hegemony.

More detailed answer, how will leaving fix the problem? With the uk leaving, the strength of Germany in the EU will be higher. I fail to see how leaving will make any improvement to this situation. Also, whether we are in or out, this is a Eurozone issue, not an EU one and we were never going to join the Euro.
[SEPH]: Leaving doesn't fix the "problem" of German hegemony. It just leaves the other 27 to stew in that juice. Why on earth should we be helping to fix a problem that cannot be fixed? You say it's a Eurozone problem; of course it's not. The German domination is total, across all 27 countries - they don't just export to the Eurozone members. And what is the "improvement to the situation" that you mentioned? Unpicking German hegemony? By the UK staying in the EU? Oh please.

What is driving the trade imbalance? There are two issues I can see - one driven by the government and one driven by the employment situation. Yes, the government could spend more on infrastructure and outsource some of this externally but that’s a political as well as economic decision. The second was the slow wage growth in Germany despite strong union representation on company boards. As unemployment is dropping in Germany, there appears to be an upturn in wage growth which will go some way to fix the problem.
[SEPH]: How will an upturn in wage growth fix the problem of German hegemony? That is naïve. Deutschland Ueber Alles is in their blood, one way or another. I'm very disappointed that you want to be a member of the ultimate United States of Germany.

Btw, you did read that Merkel is trying to get a German to be the successor to Juncker; yes? It's a pity that I can't rest my case there!

[jonbxx]

Well that’s me told!

As I said before, in my opinion, there is no German hegemony. The world view you have that Germany wants to take over Europe does not match mine. If I am wrong and we are on the verge of the fourth reich, how would the UK leaving the EU strengthen our position considering;

We trade internationally including with eurozone countries so anything Germany will do trade wise will affect us anyway
We are not in the eurozone and never will be regardless of if we stayed or left

If running an economy to that countries advantage is a reason not to do business with them, then we are going to run out of friends very quickly.

[Sephiroth]

I've not said anything about not doing business with Germany. I just don't think the 52% who voted Leave want to be part of Europe that is politically and economically (and cynically so) dominated by Germany. That you can't see this is surprising.

At one point in this debate I was content to remain in the EU and keep sticking it to them. The tipping point was Merkel's move to ensure that a German takes over from Juncker. Remember, it'll be a continuation Juncker's policy that EU members surrender sovereignty o Brussels on many important decision areas And with a German driving that, German hegemony lies behind the drive.

Do you still want that?

So when Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were Prime Minister, it was all an undercover plot for Scottish hegemony?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

So when Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were Prime Minister, it was all an undercover plot for Scottish hegemony?

What's that got to do with the evidenced case of German hegemony?

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

What's that got to do with the evidenced case of German hegemony?

’Your opinion’ ≠ ‘evidenced’...

You do love the word ‘hegemony’, don’t you...

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

’Your opinion’ ≠ ‘evidenced’...

You do love the word ‘hegemony’, don’t you...

I'm trying to drum into the Remainers that we should have little or no truck, and at worst resistant truck, with the way the EU is heading into federation controlled by Germany. Hegemony is the correct word and your sentence above contributes nothing other than to try and make me look foolish.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I'm trying to drum into the Remainers that we should have little or no truck, and at worst resistant truck, with the way the EU is heading into federation controlled by Germany. Hegemony is the correct word and your sentence above contributes nothing other than to try and make me look foolish.

There seems to be an odd fear of success with this view.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Angua

There seems to be an odd fear of success with this view.

I don't understand your meaning.