General : Virgin Media & UKTV+ITV Channels

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s all pretty much an opinion piece you have linked to that carries no more weight than a forum post from anyone here.

You have given a single example of a poster being offered a decent discount, and cite a number of smaller discounts and one off payments. However there are other factors - how many would get discounts anyway by routinely threatening to cancel, rather than genuine strong feeling over UKTV.

Your assertion of this having massive consequences based on a handful of forum posts is no more valid than me claiming the other three and a half million subscribers are happy.

The subscriber numbers and ARPU figures stood up in the Sky Basics dispute over genuinely compelling and unique content. There’s no way it’ll take a hit over a handful of freeview channels and repeats. No matter how strongly you feel - you seem to be making most noise about it - even you haven’t cancelled.

There are many examples of people being given discounts and credits, both on this forum and elsewhere. However, it is true that most people are either being offered nothing and/or being forced to stay. Hardly something that will do anything for customer goodwill.

As previously explained, I haven't cancelled because they are holding me to my contract and gone into why the very different approach by the previous owners helped to appease customers.

If you doubt the number of people cancelling, give the cancellation number a call and see if you can get through. There have been complaints to Ofcom because people are not able to cancel because of this.

It will be interesting to see the ARPU figures when they come out.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Stephen

VM are not giving that many credits or discounts out really. What they are giving is relatively small. Especially if you look at revenue and customers all together as well as revenue generated from other services too.

It also won't cost 'pennies' to give customers those channels.

The UKTV channels can easily be gotten on freeview and for a small monthly payment the rest of them. So IMO it's really not a big deal at all.

Its not like Sky Basics where at the time Sky was the only other platform to view them . This time they can keep VM and easily still have access to some or all other channels. I don't believe this matter is as big a deal as some people are making out.

But the uproar over this greater than the Sky basics removal. A lot of people obviously value these channels more. Yes you can get some of the channels on Freeview, but then most will want to record and watch at their leisure so will need a separate recording device. All this is going pee customers off even if they can get Freeview. To repeat the comedy what we're losing - Dads Army, Steptoe, Only Fools, Fawlty Towers etc, yes repeats (tbh most cable channels are) but they are classic.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...ELcuWN_F6Q76Ee

[Stephen]

Is it bigger though?

Or is social media now being bigger, making it appear bigger.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

I'm pleased for you as an individual, but all these discounts to appease and retain customers will have exceeded what VM hoped to save from the UKTV carriage deal.

This is even without factoring in the downgrades, cancellation of up to three services, extra staff costs etc etc.

The longer this goes on, the more that VM will be digging themselves deeper into a hole, making it harder and harder to get out of before becoming impossible.

If they give in and make an agreement with UKTV as they have with ITV, the other channel operators will see VM as an easier target to obtain increased carriage fees, but I don't think that they have any other option now as the damage of doing otherwise is far greater.

Damage limitation is now they best chance they have.

On the one hand, you are saying VM are 'digging themselves deeper into a hole' and you criticise them for not doing a deal, and then you imply that they can't give in because they will be seen as an easy target by other operators. Sounds to me like a cake and eat it argument.

The point is, UKTV were charging too much for the content they were offering and it appears that they were not providing the amount of on demand content that they were contractually obliged to make available.

Virgin clearly believe that they are not getting value for money, and will not agree to UKTV's terms. UKTV will lose a lot of money as a result of this intransigence and therefore, sooner or later, they will reconsider their position.

The fact the a deal was done with ITV I think shows other operators that VM will not be pushed around, and that is a good thing. However, I think that VM need to rethink their position regarding content. If they continue only to take content from other providers, they put themselves in a more vulnerable position commercially.

Although you paint this picture of disaster with the UKTV channels being dropped, it is not. They survived the Sky channels going off air some years back, and frankly, that was a bigger deal because at that time, the attraction of having pay tv was that you got the Sky channels.

Clearly, those who watched UKTV channels for much of their TV time will be disappointed or outraged by having the channels removed, most will not be too concerned by this. Yes, there will be some cancellations, but let's not get ahead of ourselves by intimating that VM will take a big financial hit by this. They were paying a lot of money to carry UKTV channels.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Is it bigger though?

Or is social media now being bigger, making it appear bigger.

Social media is very much a bubble where exaggeration often replaces real reality.

[jfman]

Give them a phone, let us know how it goes. I’m due to have my annual dance next month with retentions so hopefully they are generous.

I’m not sure the echo chambers of Facebook/Twitter have any meaningful effect. In the Sky Basics dispute there was significant press coverage plus forum outrage.

A small number of tweets, appropriately retweeted by UKTV, their employees, etc can appear “prominent”.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

There are many examples of people being given discounts and credits, both on this forum and elsewhere. However, it is true that most people are either being offered nothing and/or being forced to stay. Hardly something that will do anything for customer goodwill.

As previously explained, I haven't cancelled because they are holding me to my contract and gone into why the very different approach by the previous owners helped to appease customers.

If you doubt the number of people cancelling, give the cancellation number a call and see if you can get through. There have been complaints to Ofcom because people are not able to cancel because of this.

It will be interesting to see the ARPU figures when they come out.

Of course the lines will be busy, because they are geared up to take a lower number of queries. Nobody would doubt that a minority of viewers would phone up to complain, go for a discount or cancel. That is to be expected.

You are painting a picture of disaster. It is far from that, and things will settle down again soon. There are plenty of other channels available to watch, many with better content too, in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

But the uproar over this greater than the Sky basics removal. A lot of people obviously value these channels more. Yes you can get some of the channels on Freeview, but then most will want to record and watch at their leisure so will need a separate recording device. All this is going pee customers off even if they can get Freeview. To repeat the comedy what we're losing - Dads Army, Steptoe, Only Fools, Fawlty Towers etc, yes repeats (tbh most cable channels are) but they are classic.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...ELcuWN_F6Q76Ee

Really? Maybe you should take a look at the posts on here at the time! Sky One I recall was showing 'Lost' at the time, which everyone was talking about. What must-see programmes like that on UKTV are people annoyed about?

---------- Post added at 10:51 ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 ----------

Originally Posted by Stephen

Is it bigger though?

Or is social media now being bigger, making it appear bigger.

Couldn't agree more. Social media tends to blow everything out of proportion.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Stephen

VM are not giving that many credits or discounts out really. What they are giving is relatively small. Especially if you look at revenue and customers all together as well as revenue generated from other services too.

It also won't cost 'pennies' to give customers those channels.

The UKTV channels can easily be gotten on freeview and for a small monthly payment the rest of them. So IMO it's really not a big deal at all.

Its not like Sky Basics where at the time Sky was the only other platform to view them . This time they can keep VM and easily still have access to some or all other channels. I don't believe this matter is as big a deal as some people are making out.

True, they aren't giving out anywhere near the discounts that were given when the Sky basics left and, apparently, staff were briefed to keep customers at any cost.

VM has previously said that they want to be a service enabler, ie all content would be available on the V6. People don't want the hassle of coming out of the VM ecosystem, even to Freeview (If they have access to it that is) or pay a further £7.99 a month to regain these channels.

I was gobsmacked when VM effectively encouraged customers to have a look at what Freeview had to offer, VM are likely to find that some customers are pleasantly surprised at what they can get without paying them for it!

It's also true that there are many more (and cheaper) ways to access channels than there were in the Sky basics dispute, again, customers may find that one of these services perfectly meets all their needs.

I don't know the actual cost per subscriber for providing the UKTV channels, but was told a couple of years of do ago that paying Sky what they were asking for Sky Atlantic would have worked out at something like 45p a week. This figure is significantly more than the average cost of what it costs to bring a channel to subscribers.

The real costs to VM won't be the discounts given, but the loss of actual and future customers for years to come alonv with increased cartiage costs.

[jfman]

The call centre will be geared up for a standard call volume. Even standard plus 5-10% would create a ridiculous queue, plus average call times will be higher as the discussion may now involve UKTV. It’s the school holidays so no doubt peak annual leave.

Your “real costs” could be entirely negligible. You have no way of knowing how this will impact on future negotiations. Virgin could equally become emboldened, and third parties realise they aren’t kidding when they say final offer.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

On the one hand, you are saying VM are 'digging themselves deeper into a hole' and you criticise them for not doing a deal, and then you imply that they can't give in because they will be seen as an easy target by other operators. Sounds to me like a cake and eat it argument.

The point is, UKTV were charging too much for the content they were offering and it appears that they were not providing the amount of on demand content that they were contractually obliged to make available.

Virgin clearly believe that they are not getting value for money, and will not agree to UKTV's terms. UKTV will lose a lot of money as a result of this intransigence and therefore, sooner or later, they will reconsider their position.

The fact the a deal was done with ITV I think shows other operators that VM will not be pushed around, and that is a good thing. However, I think that VM need to rethink their position regarding content. If they continue only to take content from other providers, they put themselves in a more vulnerable position commercially.

Although you paint this picture of disaster with the UKTV channels being dropped, it is not. They survived the Sky channels going off air some years back, and frankly, that was a bigger deal because at that time, the attraction of having pay tv was that you got the Sky channels.

Clearly, those who watched UKTV channels for much of their TV time will be disappointed or outraged by having the channels removed, most will not be too concerned by this. Yes, there will be some cancellations, but let's not get ahead of ourselves by intimating that VM will take a big financial hit by this. They were paying a lot of money to carry UKTV channels.

They have dug themselves into a hole and giving in to ITV was the least worse option, but this will have the effect of them now being viewed as an easy target to increase carriage costs.

The fact that ITV got nowhere after 18 months of negotiations and then, within 24 hours of giving VM an ultimatum after their platform had been weakened, VM agree a deal acceptable to them speaks for itself. Other channel operators will now be queuing up to inflate their carriage costs.

I have previously covered why the Sky basics issue was a whole different ball game on more than one occasion.

[Ultimate.Conj]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

True, they aren't giving out anywhere near the discounts that were given when the Sky basics left and, apparently, staff were briefed to keep customers at any cost.

VM has previously said that they want to be a service enabler, ie all content would be available on the V6. People don't want the hassle of coming out of the VM ecosystem, even to Freeview (If they have access to it that is) or pay a further £7.99 a month to regain these channels.

I was gobsmacked when VM effectively encouraged customers to have a look at what Freeview had to offer, VM are likely to find that some customers are pleasantly surprised at what they can get without paying them for it!

It's also true that there are many more (and cheaper) ways to access channels than there were in the Sky basics dispute, again, customers may find that one of these services perfectly meets all their needs.

I don't know the actual cost per subscriber for providing the UKTV channels, but was told a couple of years of do ago that paying Sky what they were asking for Sky Atlantic would have worked out at something like 45p a week. This figure is significantly more than the average cost of what it costs to bring a channel to subscribers.

The real costs to VM won't be the discounts given, but the loss of actual and future customers for years to come alonv with increased cartiage costs.

45p a week cannot be right. Are you saying virgin refused to pay sky £ 23.40 a year for Atlantic?

Or do you mean 45p per week per customer?

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by jfman

The call centre will be geared up for a standard call volume. Even standard plus 5-10% would create a ridiculous queue, plus average call times will be higher as the discussion may now involve UKTV. It’s the school holidays so no doubt peak annual leave.

I don't believe that this adequately explains the extraordinary waiting times that are so bad that people have given up and complained to Ofcom.

It's true that social media whips things up, but this is a bad thing for VM.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

I don't believe that this adequately explains the extraordinary waiting times that are so bad thst people hsve givdn up anc complained to Ofcom.

It's true that social media whips things up, but this is a bad thing for VM.

Source?

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by jfman

The call centre will be geared up for a standard call volume. Even standard plus 5-10% would create a ridiculous queue, plus average call times will be higher as the discussion may now involve UKTV. It’s the school holidays so no doubt peak annual leave.

Your “real costs” could be entirely negligible. You have no way of knowing how this will impact on future negotiations. Virgin could equally become emboldened, and third parties realise they aren’t kidding when they say final offer.

As I said before, an already weakened platform could not not afford to also lose the ITV channels. It's pretty obvious that VM gave in to the requirements of ITV and this will not have gone unnoticed by the other channel providers.

[Ultimate.Conj]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

As I said before, an already weakened platform could not not afford to also lose the ITV channels. It's pretty obvious that VM gave in to the requirements of ITV and this will not have gone unnoticed by the other channel providers.

I wouldn't say it was obvious.

Did you see what virgin also get in the deal?

Premium box sets
Extended on demand viewing
4k programming including sports

Not sure that is "giving in"