Brexit discussion

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Bless you. Do forgive me for going in rather hard. The 'other side' don't want to acknowledge such matters as German hegemony and are thus content to be EU rule takers. That is the 48/52 divide.

On the point of having question answered, you didn't! The question was:

But the nub of all this is are we to be the vassal state of the EU or do we plough our own furrow as a sovereign state?

You got into the logic of the term "vassal state" but avoided answering the nub as to reverting to a sovereign state.

Do you want the UK to be part of a federal Europe? In the EU but not in the federal arrangement? Out of the EU but vassal by being a rule taker? Out of the EU and fully sovereign?

Ah OK, I see what you’re getting at I think. Of your choices, my preferred option at present would be option 2, be in the EU but not as part of some kind of federal arrangement. Basically what David Cameron came back with, avoiding the ‘ever closer union’.

Obviously, we are very unlikely to be in the EU for much longer so, from a business perspective, working for an international company, selling to other international companies, being in a customs union and single market would be ideal. Hopefully having some say in those would be great! Doing business with non-EU/EEA countries is a massive pain.

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by Hom3r

IMHO Gina Miller need her citizen revoked and deported, she is only interested in her own business.

So in this post, you said:

Chloé, as an uncle & brother to females, I would never concider taking a picture of a female showing off tomorrows washing.

I even defended you in this post by saying:

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

So I wanted to know what her reasoning behind that was. With Hom3r was it just the self vested interest in protecting his sisters / nieces?

Now I am assuming that it is your own interests / buisness to protect your family members / siblings from having pictures of what is up their skirt taken by someone.

Correct?

So by your own definition, if it is your own business to protect your family (and nothing else though I assume that you might be advocating to try protect the interests of every woman?) then are you suggesting that your advocacy is a deport-able offense??

(The irony, that if it was an illegal immigrant who was the culprit yet you were the one who got deported lol).

I am confused, did you mean Gina's business interests? But even on that front, it makes no sense. The whole point of leaving the EU is so that as Brits we become the most selfish nation on the planet and protect only what is ours, take control of what we can, and so on.

Isn't she just assimilating with the selfishness of your average two bit nationalist?

Or are you suggesting that we should engage in acts of voluntary repatriation for those who don't share the mentality of the state first doctrine?

Your post makes absolutely no sense to me and this part, please explain / elaborate only right now Gina Miller seems to have the mechanisms of capitalism worked out and you seem to be suggesting that she (as a citizen) is deported, having her citizenship revoked...(while giving evidence of your own well meaning acts of selfishness, all at the same time).

Please explain. (I swear I can't be getting your comments this wrong and you seem like a sincere and nice guy so correct me on this, please. )

As I said before I don't care if Brexit costs me my job, we MUST fully leave the EU and not stay in any way whatsoever.

As much as I hate to say it (and not in personal regard to you, I hope that your job works out) but I do kind of want to see some of the real life consequences of leaving the EU come home. It is not very Christian of me to wish ill but a little "reality" for those who believe in the cake and eat it / land of milk and honey stuff would not be a bad thing. Mick said to me earlier that no amount of anything would make him regret his vote / wish that he voted to remain. And I was glad of that - like I am about what you just said. I like principle and people who fight on grounds of sincerity - you are not a hypocrite and are willing to put your money where your mouth is.

Like I said in my previous post above, it is the reality of the situation that businesses and jobs are going to disappear - that is not fearmongering. I am glad that people like you are willing to stand up and say "if my job goes, then so be it". That I can respect.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Ah OK, I see what you’re getting at I think. Of your choices, my preferred option at present would be option 2, be in the EU but not as part of some kind of federal arrangement. Basically what David Cameron came back with, avoiding the ‘ever closer union’.

Obviously, we are very unlikely to be in the EU for much longer so, from a business perspective, working for an international company, selling to other international companies, being in a customs union and single market would be ideal. Hopefully having some say in those would be great! Doing business with non-EU/EEA countries is a massive pain.

I can live with that. I'd be content to remain in the EU outside of their folly, and to constantly be the picador that annoys the hell out of Brussels.

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

How about the judges who found in her favour? Should their citizenship be revoked too?

Yeah and to what nation would they be sent? Voluntary repatriation...to where?



Natural born citizens with no other citizenship...I can't imagine Hom3r was being serious in his post.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hom3r

IMHO Gina Miller need her citizen revoked and deported, she is only interested in her own business.

As I said before I don't care if Brexit costs me my job, we MUST fully leave the EU and not stay in any way whatsoever.


Airbus should get Red Bull to make their wings

To be fair though David, you don't like your job...

I have to admit a degree of admiration though regardless.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Ah OK, I see what you’re getting at I think. Of your choices, my preferred option at present would be option 2, be in the EU but not as part of some kind of federal arrangement. Basically what David Cameron came back with, avoiding the ‘ever closer union’.

Obviously, we are very unlikely to be in the EU for much longer so, from a business perspective, working for an international company, selling to other international companies, being in a customs union and single market would be ideal. Hopefully having some say in those would be great! Doing business with non-EU/EEA countries is a massive pain.

That would be my stance too.

To clarify - discussing the negative impacts that Brexit is cited to bring or has brought is not some kind of conspiracy to thwart Brexit. What I find particularly interesting is how the Irish border can be solved. That tin can has been well and truly kicked down the road and because it's not being discussed right now, doesn't mean it's gone away. A hard Brexit would mean a hard border no ifs and buts and maybes. Theresa May has promised no hard border but David Davis has now said that a hard Brexit is a possibility. So many contradictory statements from our government.

[Sephiroth]

A hard borderin Ireland would be introduced by the EU not the Uk. And serve them right. When Ireland was up schmitt creek in 2008, we bailed our friends out with a 7 billion loan. That’s how they thank us by playng the Good Friday card (the Agreementdoesn’t even mention the border).

The border thing is just an EU wheeze to keep us in the Customs Union.

Just as well that May’s backstop is covered by nothing is agree till everything is agreed.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

A hard borderin Ireland would be introduced by the EU not the Uk. And serve them right. When Ireland was up schmitt creek in 2008, we bailed our friends out with a 7 billion loan. That’s how they thank us by playng the Good Friday card (the Agreementdoesn’t even mention the border).

The border thing is just an EU wheeze to keep us in the Customs Union.

Just as well that May’s backstop is covered by nothing is agree till everything is agreed.

Factually incorrect. To trade on WTO rules, you need a hard border. So the UK and Ireland would need one in place in the event of a no-deal Brexit. So, nothing's being played, this is a reality.

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You are right to call out those who come out with this fascist rubbish.

Thank you - the kind of response from you does set my mind at ease that the majority of people here do not espouse the views that Hom3r was advocating and I was unsure if he meant it or not - I assumed that it was either a very crass joke or just flippant sarcasm.

The definition was perfect on your part - his comments specifically espouse the doctrine of fascism.

But please do not tar all Brexiters with that brush as you (possibly unintentionally) have done.

Yeah it sadly does pass off the impression of what Roger Helmer did through his parliamentary run - tar and feather the entire party of UKIP as voluntary repatriation proponents when nothing could be further from the truth.

Farage of all people even said after the debate that the first thing that Britain should do is unilaterally guarantee the rights of all EU citizens otherwise it makes Britain look like a banana republic. Sadly with views like hom3r's (if serious) make the UK look exactly like that - labelled as a banana Republic.

Thank you again for your post - it would indeed be wrong to see everyone who voted leave labelled as those of having crazy views and I hate the idea of that - whether it is in regards to gender / race / nationality / age etc etc.

More sane people who voted leave coming forward with their own opinions / views will expand the debate and the more voices the more rational the issue will be, because most of us still have faith that the decency of human beings (whatever side of the aisle that you are on) will prevail - shutting out people from the debate / out of the country is exactly what you described it as - the precursor to fascism.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Factually incorrect. To trade on WTO rules, you need a hard border. So the UK and Ireland would need one in place in the event of a no-deal Brexit. So, nothing's being played, this is a reality.

You may well be right about WTO rules. But that was fathest from my mind. Up front was the EU/Irish ploy at using the Good Friday Agreement as a means of making life easier for Ireland. The perfidious Varadkar had WTO farthest from his mind when he commenced his perfidy.

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:09 ----------

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Thank you - the kind of response from you does set my mind at ease that the majority of people here do not espouse the views that Hom3r was advocating and I was unsure if he meant it or not - I assumed that it was either a very crass joke or just flippant sarcasm.

The definition was perfect on your part - his comments specifically espouse the doctrine of fascism.



Yeah it sadly does pass off the impression of what Roger Helmer did through his parliamentary run - tar and feather the entire party of UKIP as voluntary repatriation proponents when nothing could be further from the truth.

Farage of all people even said after the debate that the first thing that Britain should do is unilaterally guarantee the rights of all EU citizens otherwise it makes Britain look like a banana republic. Sadly with views like hom3r's (if serious) make the UK look exactly like that - labelled as a banana Republic.

Thank you again for your post - it would indeed be wrong to see everyone who voted leave labelled as those of having crazy views and I hate the idea of that - whether it is in regards to gender / race / nationality / age etc etc.

More sane people who voted leave coming forward with their own opinions / views will expand the debate and the more voices the more rational the issue will be, because most of us still have faith that the decency of human beings (whatever side of the aisle that you are on) will prevail - shutting out people from the debate / out of the country is exactly what you described it as - the precursor to fascism.

Your kind words about me are appreciated.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You are right to call out those who come out with this fascist rubbish.

But please do not tar all Brexiters with that brush as you (possibly unintentionally) have done.

People here are going into the square root of Airbus, BMW and using it as an argument not to let the Referendum result prevail. Sure, try to get a good deal (those Brussels turds don't want us to have a reasonable deal); obviously no deal is better than a bad deal. As I say, the UK is of sufficient critical mass to make a thorough go of things.

But the nub of all this is are we to be the vassal state of the EU or do we plough our own furrow as a sovereign state?

I suspect that those remainers on this forum who are provoking this Project Fear stuff will avoid a direct answer to my question. Or they'll dance around it and change the question.

Just get on with Brexit.

You say "do not tar all Brexiters with that brush" but then you paint yourself with another: "those Brussels turds". Using such language encourages no-one to enter into a serious adult debate.

---------- Post added at 16:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:45 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I've said that we're more than 60 million people. That's enough to make a success of our country with both its buying power and its in-house skills

You keep saying this but having that many people in your country does not preordain economic prosperity. Don't forget a lot of our "in-house skills" as you put it are vulnerable to Multinationals deciding to off shore them if the economic outlook is not favourable to them.

The industry I work in, IT, has seen many highly skilled UK workers made redundant not because they were not skilled or productive but because the company wanted to employ cheaper staff in Eastern Europe, India, China, etc.

---------- Post added at 16:55 ---------- Previous post was at 16:51 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

But the nub of all this is are we to be the vassal state of the EU or do we plough our own furrow as a sovereign state?

I suspect that those remainers on this forum who are provoking this Project Fear stuff will avoid a direct answer to my question. Or they'll dance around it and change the question.

Just get on with Brexit.

Just a reminder that we are a sovereign state, just not in the way you want.

I had thought we had left behind the childish Project Fear labelling. If you object to the information presented, just explain why it is wrong and present your own counter argument, backed by facts.

---------- Post added at 17:02 ---------- Previous post was at 16:55 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Bless you. Do forgive me for going in rather hard. The 'other side' don't want to acknowledge such matters as German hegemony and are thus content to be EU rule takers. That is the 48/52 divide.

On the point of having question answered, you didn't! The question was:

But the nub of all this is are we to be the vassal state of the EU or do we plough our own furrow as a sovereign state?

You got into the logic of the term "vassal state" but avoided answering the nub as to reverting to a sovereign state.

Do you want the UK to be part of a federal Europe? In the EU but not in the federal arrangement? Out of the EU but vassal by being a rule taker? Out of the EU and fully sovereign?

Not true, I for one tried to reply to your assertion that the EU is a project designed to make Germany richer. You just do not like the answers.

I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago and after visiting the various WWII institutions, can clearly understand why they are motivated in the way they are and why they are so nervous of the rise of nationalism across Europe.

As Churchill said in 1957:

We genuinely wish to join a European free trade area – and if our continental friends wish to reach agreement, I am quite sure a way can be found and that reasonable adjustments can be made to meet the essential interests of all.

I feel he would saddened by the attitude of many in the UK ..

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You may well be right about WTO rules. But that was fathest from my mind. Up front was the EU/Irish ploy at using the Good Friday Agreement as a means of making life easier for Ireland. The perfidious Varadkar had WTO farthest from his mind when he commenced his perfidy.

What is it with "perfidy"?

Don't you see the job of the EU, which includes Eire, is to get the best outcome for their members, not for us. We are the ones who are divorcing them! Maybe we can get a divorce on the grounds of our mental incapacity

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You say "do not tar all Brexiters with that brush" but then you paint yourself with another: "those Brussels turds". Using such language encourages no-one to enter into a serious adult debate. [SEPH]: One has nothing to do with the other. A fascistic remark by one person does not equate to and adjectival noun used to describe the turds in Brussels trying to screw us. As to your "serious adult debate" point - oh please.

---------- Post added at 16:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:45 ----------



You keep saying this but having that many people in your country does not preordain economic prosperity. Don't forget a lot of our "in-house skills" as you put it are vulnerable to Multinationals deciding to off shore them if the economic outlook is not favourable to them. [SEPH]: Try being positive about our people and indeed those non-nationals who will continue with their lives in the UK.

The industry I work in, IT, has seen many highly skilled UK workers made redundant not because they were not skilled or productive but because the company wanted to employ cheaper staff in Eastern Europe, India, China, etc.[SEPH]: What's that got to do with Brexit? Also your argument runs counter to the daily news that we are short of IT skills due to immigration targets being reached.

---------- Post added at 16:55 ---------- Previous post was at 16:51 ----------



Just a reminder that we are a sovereign state, just not in the way you want.

I had thought we had left behind the childish Project Fear labelling. If you object to the information presented, just explain why it is wrong and present your own counter argument, backed by facts. [SEPH]: What on earth are you on about? Nothing I have argued has the slightest touch of Project Fear. I merely argue that the UK has voted to leave the EU in the Referendum (and that obviously means the major institutions of the Customs Union and Single Market). I have also explained how Germany has engineered the Euro for its advantage and has engineered Greece into a vassal state. These, and Brussels Commission are people from whom I'd like to get away.

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:15 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

Not true, I for one tried to reply to your assertion that the EU is a project designed to make Germany richer. You just do not like the answers. [SEPH]: Maybe I missed that reply. But I certainly DID NOT say that the EU was a project designed to make Germany richer. I was very clear that Germany has engineered the Euro to its advantage (I explained that in great detail much earlier in this thread). Right now it is protecting its 8% surplus in spite of it being illegal. German hegemony is at work.

I was in Berlin a couple of weeks ago and after visiting the various WWII institutions, can clearly understand why they are motivated in the way they are and why they are so nervous of the rise of nationalism across Europe. [SEPH]: Are you telling me that German hegemony today is motivated by their World War 2 experience? You didn't mean Deutschland Ueber Alles but that's their plan in the economic sense. If you can't see that then you are blind to reason.

As Churchill said in 1957: [SEPH]: What did Churchill say in 1957?

I feel he would saddened by the attitude of many in the UK ..

---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------



What is it with "perfidy"?

Don't you see the job of the EU, which includes Eire, is to get the best outcome for their members, not for us. We are the ones who are divorcing them! Maybe we can get a divorce on the grounds of our mental incapacity [SEPH]: The perfidy is obvious. The EU and Ireland are hiding behind the Good Friday Agreement to try and force our hand. How about you standing up for things that the UK wants? We are divorcing from them because a Referendum instructed us to. The perfidious Varadkar has forgotten how we came to Ireland's economic rescue. Now he's part of the scheme to stiff us. Don't stand up for the EU and its tricks.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Factually incorrect. To trade on WTO rules, you need a hard border. So the UK and Ireland would need one in place in the event of a no-deal Brexit. So, nothing's being played, this is a reality.

The problem is, Andrew, you see every difficulty as an insurmountable problem.

As an example, one simple way of overcoming the border issue between Ireland and Northern Ireland is to give NI membership of the WTO in its own right. That particular solution was put forward by Pascal Lamy himself, who is the former Head of the WTO.

As I have said many times before on this thread, solutions to intractable problems are often found by thinking outside of the box.

The NI border issue is a complete red herring and is not a 'barrier' to a successful Brexit. Solutions are available, although Barnier seems to enjoy rejecting everything put in front of him. He'd better make the most of it, because the clock is ticking (tick tock ) and it will soon be time for him to get real and stop messing about.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The problem is, Andrew, you see every difficulty as an insurmountable problem.

As an example, one simple way of overcoming the border issue between Ireland and Northern Ireland is to give NI membership of the WTO in its own right. That particular solution was put forward by Pascal Lamy himself, who is the former Head of the WTO.

As I have said many times before on this thread, solutions to intractable problems are often found by thinking outside of the box.

The NI border issue is a complete red herring and is not a 'barrier' to a successful Brexit. Solutions are available, although Barnier seems to enjoy rejecting everything put in front of him. He'd better make the most of it, because the clock is ticking (tick tock ) and it will soon be time for him to get real and stop messing about.

Barney knows that, it's bluff pure and simple and I like the rhetoric we are using, no deal is back on the table, as is the prospect of losing our contributions fully and having a neighbour who doesn't give a toss about his fair and level playing field. All this talk of businesses leaving is all to do with money to, they're worried their bottom line will be effected, that's why imo the end deal will look remarkably similar to what we have now in all respects and the only people that'll upset is the extremists on both sides and who frankly gives a toss about them

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You say "do not tar all Brexiters with that brush" but then you paint yourself with another: "those Brussels turds". Using such language encourages no-one to enter into a serious adult debate. [SEPH]: One has nothing to do with the other. A fascistic remark by one person does not equate to and adjectival noun used to describe the turds in Brussels trying to screw us. As to your "serious adult debate" point - oh please.

I did not say that they had something to do with each other. Your use of such adjectives to describe the EU betrays a lack of objectivity. You seem blinded by your hatred of the Eu to assess what might be a reasonable compromise.

You equate the use of the "turds in Brussels trying to screw us" as "serious adult debate"? Nil points from the UK jury