Brexit discussion

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Who can be redeployed to build planes for Britain or to build foreign planes we might wish to buy.

You need to respect the Brexit vote whether or not you like it. That's our democratic system.

How on earth is your second point, a straw man, relevant to anything in the discussion? Debating Colas or Airbus is not disrespecting the Brexit vote. Closing down such debates is fundamentally unBritish and not what my forefathers fought for.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

How on earth is your second point, a straw man, relevant to anything in the discussion? Debating Colas or Airbus is not disrespecting the Brexit vote. Closing down such debates is fundamentally unBritish and not what my forefathers fought for.

Your posting history in this thread is all about the harm to the UK that will arise from leaving the UK. Fair enough - it's your right.

But the thrust is clear - reverse Brexit if possible (even if you haven't said that directly it is obvious).

I've said that we're more than 60 million people. That's enough to make a success of our country with both its buying power and its in-house skills.

Remainers nibbling away at the democratically arrived at decision to leave the EU are a pest that we have to live with. Worst of all are those MPs who are determined to thwart the Referendum - they being the main hope of the remainers.

We should just get on with it and leave those crooks in Brussels behind us.

[Hom3r]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Protesters to march on anniversary to demand second referendum.

Traitors at the event will include Tory rebel Anna Soubry, Labour MP David Lammy and Green Party co-leader Caroline Lucas.

Businesswoman Gina Miller, who took the Government to court over Brexit, will also give a speech in favour of a second third or even fourth referendum until she gets the answer she wants.

The real story here
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...my-Gina-Miller

IMHO Gina Miller need her citizen revoked and deported, she is only interested in her own business.

As I said before I don't care if Brexit costs me my job, we MUST fully leave the EU and not stay in any way whatsoever.


Airbus should get Red Bull to make their wings

[1andrew1]

This says it all about the current Government's incompetent approach to business.

...the Foreign Secretary was asked about the fears of some business leaders over Brexit and replied: “f*** business.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ness-concerns/

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hom3r

IMHO Gina Miller need her citizen revoked and deported, she is only interested in her own business.

As I said before I don't care if Brexit costs me my job, we MUST fully leave the EU and not stay in any way whatsoever.


Airbus should get Red Bull to make their wings

That's going too far and is actually quite fascist. I supported Gina Miller's single handed fight to bring some degree of parliamentary say into the process OF LEAVING THE EU.

Of course that's being misused now to try and derail Brexit - and might indeed have been Miller's intention. But she had the right to pose a legal challenge and the law agreed with her case. We can't democratically rail against that.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Hom3r

IMHO Gina Miller need her citizen revoked and deported, she is only interested in her own business.

As I said before I don't care if Brexit costs me my job, we MUST fully leave the EU and not stay in any way whatsoever.


Airbus should get Red Bull to make their wings

Would you be in favour of leaving the EMA, ECA and EASA (medicines, chemicals and aviation agencies) The government wants to stay in those..

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You need to respect the Brexit vote whether or not you like it. That's our democratic system.

Absolutely but it does not mean that those who did not vote for Brexit should zip their mouth nor should they be called traitors.

[heero_yuy]

Quote from denphone:


Absolutely but it does not mean that those who did not vote for Brexit should zip their mouth nor should they be called traitors.

Expressing an opinion is fine. Deliberately trying to derail the process to keep us effectively IN the EU is treason.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Hom3r

IMHO Gina Miller need her citizen revoked and deported, she is only interested in her own business.

As I said before I don't care if Brexit costs me my job, we MUST fully leave the EU and not stay in any way whatsoever.


Airbus should get Red Bull to make their wings

How about the judges who found in her favour? Should their citizenship be revoked too?

[Mr K]

Traitors ? Treason ? We're increasingly going down a Nazi road... Soon the Tower will be back in business? Brexiters need to look at the language they are using, and why they are easily ridiculed. Free speech is what we've fought 2 World Wars for.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Traitors ? Treason ? We're increasingly going down a Nazi road... Soon the Tower will be back in business? Brexiters need to look at the language they are using, and why they are easily ridiculed. Free speech is what we've fought 2 World Wars for.

You are right to call out those who come out with this fascist rubbish.

But please do not tar all Brexiters with that brush as you (possibly unintentionally) have done.

People here are going into the square root of Airbus, BMW and using it as an argument not to let the Referendum result prevail. Sure, try to get a good deal (those Brussels turds don't want us to have a reasonable deal); obviously no deal is better than a bad deal. As I say, the UK is of sufficient critical mass to make a thorough go of things.

But the nub of all this is are we to be the vassal state of the EU or do we plough our own furrow as a sovereign state?

I suspect that those remainers on this forum who are provoking this Project Fear stuff will avoid a direct answer to my question. Or they'll dance around it and change the question.

Just get on with Brexit.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You are right to call out those who come out with this fascist rubbish.

But please do not tar all Brexiters with that brush as you (possibly unintentionally) have done.

People here are going into the square root of Airbus, BMW and using it as an argument not to let the Referendum result prevail. Sure, try to get a good deal (those Brussels turds don't want us to have a reasonable deal); obviously no deal is better than a bad deal. As I say, the UK is of sufficient critical mass to make a thorough go of things.

But the nub of all this is are we to be the vassal state of the EU or do we plough our own furrow as a sovereign state?

I suspect that those remainers on this forum who are provoking this Project Fear stuff will avoid a direct answer to my question. Or they'll dance around it and change the question.

Just get on with Brexit.

Challenge accepted The EU was and is not a separate entity to the nation state. It’s the result of a series of treaties between countries to promote trade and foster a collaborative atmosphere. You can’t really be a vassal state of on organisation you help run. We have 73 MEPs and of course a seat on the EU council inhabited by Theresa May at present. We have a say in all decisions made and are pretty successful in this with well over 90% of the time being on the winning side in council votes.

If we choose something like EEA membership, then will will have the benefits but no say. Then I would agree that the term vassal state would apply but as a fully paid up member of the EU, no.

Why has it not worked for the UK population is the big question. In my opinion, there are a few answers which are not mutually exclusive. First, we have never been invaded in modern times and certainly did not suffer like other countries in the Second World War and Cold War. Being under the cosh of other states will focus the mind of cooperation being preferable to conflict. Of course, the counter argument is ‘what about Germany’? There is a collective institutional recognition of what nationalism does to a country and your average German will push back hard if you cite ‘Deutschland Uber Alles’.

The second reason, linked to the first as that we never really ‘took part’. Look at the turnouts for European elections. These elections were time time to make a protest vote with ‘no harm’. However, this meant that we have been under represented in the European Parliament by our own hands. Look at the attendance figures of our MEPs as an example.

The final reason is that it has been easy to blame ‘others’ for our own countries failings. The UK negotiated an opt out for signs to be posted on EU funded projects. The EU gave over £20m for the reconstruction of Manchester City centre after the 1996 bombing but you wouldn’t know. My mum lives in the wilds of Scotland and the local busses are funded by the EU as it is a deprived area and there’s no government funding. Hopefully of course, some of that sweet £350m will come in to replace that funding but I have my doubts.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Challenge accepted The EU was and is not a separate entity to the nation state. It’s the result of a series of treaties between countries to promote trade and foster a collaborative atmosphere. You can’t really be a vassal state of on organisation you help run. [SEPH]: Correct - to a point. The EU is a body that is now founded on "ever closer union"; namely the dissolution of the nation state. The UK would never accede to that extent and would remain a nation state - whether inside or outside the EU. But then Greece is now a vassal state, so engineered by the Germans who also engineered the Euro to its advantage. If we LEAVE the EU, but are bound in a rule taking manner, we would be a vassal state. We are LEAVING the EU so "vassal state" is mentioned in that context. If we do remain in the EU, the current direction of travel it is taking would reduce our influence; we would thus be on the sidelines if not a vassal state.

We have 73 MEPs and of course a seat on the EU council inhabited by Theresa May at present. We have a say in all decisions made and are pretty successful in this with well over 90% of the time being on the winning side in council votes. [SEPH]: Yes. That would be wonderful if the CAP was de-skewed from being to France's advantage; if we could actually have greater control over our fisheries - to name just two.

If we choose something like EEA membership, then will will have the benefits but no say. Then I would agree that the term vassal state would apply but as a fully paid up member of the EU, no. [SEPH]: Agreed - see my earlier remark in this reply

Why has it not worked for the UK population is the big question. In my opinion, there are a few answers which are not mutually exclusive. First, we have never been invaded in modern times and certainly did not suffer like other countries in the Second World War and Cold War. Being under the cosh of other states will focus the mind of cooperation being preferable to conflict. Of course, the counter argument is ‘what about Germany’? There is a collective institutional recognition of what nationalism does to a country and your average German will push back hard if you cite ‘Deutschland Uber Alles’. [SEPH]:Ah - the Germans. Of course they'll push back; more than content that they have an 8% surplus year on year (the rules allow only 3%). The cash flows into Germany and out of everywhere else. This is German hegemony, nothing less and no wonder the Germans like it. Deutschland ueber Alles.

The second reason, linked to the first as that we never really ‘took part’. Look at the turnouts for European elections. These elections were time to make a protest vote with ‘no harm’. However, this meant that we have been under represented in the European Parliament by our own hands. Look at the attendance figures of our MEPs as an example. [SEPH]: A complete red herring, I'd have to say. The people don't vote in the European elections because there's little point given the hostility of the MEPs to the UK. The reason that the European Parliament is majority for federalisation is very simple: they know that they would trump all national parliaments, especially ours. However, when the Referendum took place, the voters turned out. That tells you something.

The final reason is that it has been easy to blame ‘others’ for our own countries failings. The UK negotiated an opt out for signs to be posted on EU funded projects. The EU gave over £20m for the reconstruction of Manchester City centre after the 1996 bombing but you wouldn’t know. My mum lives in the wilds of Scotland and the local busses are funded by the EU as it is a deprived area and there’s no government funding. Hopefully of course, some of that sweet £350m will come in to replace that funding but I have my doubts. [SEPH]: Please don't praise the EU's generosity. This is a plain case of the EU Commission doing the right thing with the proportion of the money we give them that is then allocated back to our projects. Brexit gives us control over that spending. I understand your point - which boils down to not trusting the UK to prioritise such projects. But it was a total crap shoot as to whether or not the EU would prioritise them. We have elections that can punish our politicians; but the unelected EU Commission is not accountable to the EU citizens.

At least you tried.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

At least you tried.

Yeah, not trying to persuade you, it was just my 10 cents as a remoaner Even if you didn’t agree, did it restore your faith in having questions answered by the ‘other side’? If I didn’t answer your question, please let me know.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Yeah, not trying to persuade you, it was just my 10 cents as a remoaner Even if you didn’t agree, did it restore your faith in having questions answered by the ‘other side’? If I didn’t answer your question, please let me know.

Bless you. Do forgive me for going in rather hard. The 'other side' don't want to acknowledge such matters as German hegemony and are thus content to be EU rule takers. That is the 48/52 divide.

On the point of having question answered, you didn't! The question was:

But the nub of all this is are we to be the vassal state of the EU or do we plough our own furrow as a sovereign state?

You got into the logic of the term "vassal state" but avoided answering the nub as to reverting to a sovereign state.

Do you want the UK to be part of a federal Europe? In the EU but not in the federal arrangement? Out of the EU but vassal by being a rule taker? Out of the EU and fully sovereign?