A Duty To Die?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You need to get a grip, do gooders what a trite little saying, rather meaningless unless there's a group of people who are do baders and it doesn't just need thinking through as we already seen in this thread living wills manipulated, suicide kits being sent through the post, people going to dignitas fit and healthy, just feeling a bit old and tired, dignitas using doctors who have been struck of, dignitas ignoring patients distressed emotional states or mental health conditions, otherwise healthy blind people being eutanised, campaigners protesting that current legislation was being interpreted to liberally, suicide workshops being tried to set up, people being euthanized because they're lonely, police chiefs and doctors warning that they fear this will become a way of getting rid of people who are a burden and thats just of the top of my head, I'd suggest none of that is humane or right and can't be sorted by having a bit of a think about it, legislation in Holland and Belgium is already being routinely circumvented or manipulated.

Which is why I said it would have to be properly thought through and regulated. There are problems with every piece of legislation. Nothing would get done if everyone just gave up at the whiff of a problem.

You may believe that watching people suffer cruel and painful deaths when a simple way of relieving their suffering is available is ok, but I do not.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Which is why I said it would have to be properly thought through and regulated. There are problems with every piece of legislation. Nothing would get done if everyone just gave up at the whiff of a problem.

You may believe that watching people suffer cruel and painful deaths when a simple way of relieving their suffering is available is ok, but I do not.

What about the people who aren't suffering cruel and painful deaths, the blind people, those who feel a bit tired, the otherwise healthy but old and the rest who have been euthanized, you don't feel there were regulations in place in Holland, Belgium or Switzerland to stop these people dying, well guess what there are and they're still dead and I don't think describing them as a legislative problem is good enough and it's not like most other legislation that can be dropped or changed at the drop of a hat, it's effects can't be rolled back and them brought back to life.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

What about the people who aren't suffering cruel and painful deaths, the blind people, those who feel a bit tired, the otherwise healthy but old and the rest who have been euthanized, you don't feel there were regulations in place in Holland, Belgium or Switzerland to stop these people dying, well guess what there are and they're still dead and I don't think describing them as a legislative problem is good enough and it's not like most other legislation that can be dropped or changed at the drop of a hat, it's effects can't be rolled back and them brought back to life.

The examples you have given trivialise the debate. We're not talking about blind people and those who feel a bit tired!!

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The examples you have given trivialise the debate. We're not talking about blind people and those who feel a bit tired!!

Yes that's exactly who we are talking about, you do realise those people were alive don't you and those are the reasons given for their deaths, I don't find it trivial, I find it disgusting and worrying in equal measures but I'm sure you probably think it humane

[richard s]

I find the film strangely fascinating and shocking although the year 2022 is a mistake...



https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3dq3ef


The story of humans at their best...Not.

Uthanasia gone wrong.


I am in favor with protocols in place for instance if I get dementia than I would not want to become a cabbage.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Yes that's exactly who we are talking about, you do realise those people were alive don't you and those are the reasons given for their deaths, I don't find it trivial, I find it disgusting and worrying in equal measures but I'm sure you probably think it humane

It’s trivial because no-one is arguing that they should be granted euthanasia.

“Oh, darling, I’m feeling bushed. I think I’ll go down to the local abattoir and end it all.”

What a ridiculous argument!

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

It’s trivial because no-one is arguing that they should be granted euthanasia.

“Oh, darling, I’m feeling bushed. I think I’ll go down to the local abattoir and end it all.”

What a ridiculous argument!

It's not an argument, it's already happened

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

It's not an argument, it's already happened

Well, that's not what I am talking about at all. I am talking mainly about people with terminal illnesses and in a lot of pain. One would have to be pretty uncaring to tell them they have to continue to suffer until the bitter end because you have 'principles' or the right not to be inconvenienced.

I clarified earlier on that euthanasia will have to be properly regulated. I don't think that a person who is feeling tired would exactly qualify under a properly regulated regime, do you?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Well, that's not what I am talking about at all. I am talking mainly about people with terminal illnesses and in a lot of pain. One would have to be pretty uncaring to tell them they have to continue to suffer until the bitter end because you have 'principles' or the right not to be inconvenienced.

I clarified earlier on that euthanasia will have to be properly regulated. I don't think that a person who is feeling tired would exactly qualify under a properly regulated regime, do you?

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your view what you or I for that matter say doesn't become legislation, I'm sure the Dutch, Belgium and Swiss thought through their legislation and came up with something they thought would be of a great help to their society but I'm also sure they didn't expect the blind and tired I mentioned earlier to take advantage of their new laws but they did all the same and now they're dead.

I've given some examples of people earlier in the thread who have locked in syndrome and the like, they are truly tragic stories and you can't help but feel sympathy for them and I can't argue that for them this is the best option but at the same time you can't ignore what's gone on in other countries and how the rules have been manipulated or flouted nor can you ignore what we are like as a society in this country, I agree with the police chief who said if we had these laws here it'd become a way of removing a burden or gaining a legacy

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your view what you or I for that matter say doesn't become legislation, I'm sure the Dutch, Belgium and Swiss thought through their legislation and came up with something they thought would be of a great help to their society but I'm also sure they didn't expect the blind and tired I mentioned earlier to take advantage of their new laws but they did all the same and now they're dead.

I've given some examples of people earlier in the thread who have locked in syndrome and the like, they are truly tragic stories and you can't help but feel sympathy for them and I can't argue that for them this is the best option but at the same time you can't ignore what's gone on in other countries and how the rules have been manipulated or flouted nor can you ignore what we are like as a society in this country, I agree with the police chief who said if we had these laws here it'd become a way of removing a burden or gaining a legacy

So you learn from those mistakes. Honestly, it's not rocket science! As I said, it would need to be properly regulated.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

So you learn from those mistakes. Honestly, it's not rocket science! As I said, it would need to be properly regulated.

You keep saying that like it's gospel, do you really think the Dutch, Belgium's and Swiss don't properly regulate or can't they cope with rocket science in your opinion

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You keep saying that like it's gospel, do you really think the Dutch, Belgium's and Swiss don't properly regulate or can't they cope with rocket science in your opinion

Well clearly, if they are allowing the termination of life on the basis that someone is tired, I think I am entitled to point out that we most certainly could do better than that!

And you tell me to get a grip! What is your definition of a problem? Honestly!

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Well clearly, if they are allowing the termination of life on the basis that someone is tired, I think I am entitled to point out that we most certainly could do better than that!

And you tell me to get a grip! What is your definition of a problem? Honestly!

You really do need to get a grip if you'd trust that shower in Westminster to be in charge of actual life and death, haven't they proven inept enough at pretty much everything else with their ignore the experts, self serving, we know best approach, that's my whole problem with this, i don't trust those bozos to implement it and whilst it may benefit some individuals I think society as a whole will suffer because of them, you claim in your sig that experience is everything, haven't you seen enough or had enough experience of those clowns yet

So we leave it in the hands of doctors none of which would ever allow euthanasia for tiredness or being blind and to be honest if systems abroad have allowed people that were tired to use euthanasia then clearly their system is lousy and not fit for purpose. Just because it hasn't worked well in other countries shouldn't mean we don't try and find an acceptable solution for those in appalling positions who continue to suffer with no chance of a decent quality of life. No system will ever be 100% free of abuse but that's not a good enough reason to not even try and strict criminal penalties for those who do abuse the system will make that type of person think twice.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

So we leave it in the hands of doctors none of which would ever allow euthanasia for tiredness or being blind and to be honest if systems abroad have allowed people that were tired to use euthanasia then clearly their system is lousy and not fit for purpose. Just because it hasn't worked well in other countries shouldn't mean we don't try and find an acceptable solution for those in appalling positions who continue to suffer with no chance of a decent quality of life. No system will ever be 100% free of abuse but that's not a good enough reason to not even try and strict criminal penalties for those who do abuse the system will make that type of person think twice.

Unfortunately In those other countries it is doctors hiding behind legislation who have allowed this to happen and iirc doctors were heavily involved in it's writing plus in one case (probably more) where it was a struck of doctor doing the paperwork and handing over the drugs. It's okay saying just because Johnny foreigner can't make it work it shouldn't stop us having a go but we've already seen living wills manipulated here to ends where I doubt anyone is happy