R.I.P Alfie Evans 'Dies’ after life support ends

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Damien

The other thing is that he already had significant brain damage that even a cure for the condition itself wouldn’t have cured him unless you can reverse brain damage.

His brain damage was very severe and the chances of that being reversed are to put it bluntly zero.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by denphone

His brain damage was very severe and the chances of that being reversed are to put it bluntly zero.

It's always emotive when a child is in this position and everyone wants a happy ending but the way everyone piles in blindly when these cases occur with the press who take every chance to whip up emotions and the parents get used and manipulated for the entertainment of others. The Italian attempt at intervention wasn't based on medical grounds it was based on publicity they didn't know a medical thing about the case but wanted to be seen to be better The threats against medical staff were abhorrent and completely unacceptable as I've never met an NHS medical team that didn't have the best interests of the patient as the primary goal and I've seen nothing in this case to suggest otherwise.

The way that social media mob rule manifests at the slightest chance shows there is something very wrong with our society these days and all the circus that grew up around took and had no interest in the best interests of alfie or how this was for him. He had no chance at any quality of life even if he could have been stabilised life without a quality of life is not living it's a technicality and this child and any future children deserve to either have the chance at life or if that's not possible the most gentle passing we can give not to be kept in limbo to suit agenda's.

We do not know how damaged his brain was, he did not have a diagnosed brain condition, they did not know everything.

I maintain my view. It should still not be left up to the State to decide on when someone should die, unless of course we are now deciding euthanasia should be legal.

I say this was Euthanasia in my eyes because they removed the ventilator, an act they would know to intentionally cause Alfie's eventual death.

Alfie was still responding to stimuli and reacting to his parents touch, his life should have been preserved until ALL medical avenues were exhausted, they were not because they were tied up in the hospital interfering in the parents wishes to take him abroad and they did so with months of litigation. It was the same with Charlie Gard, months and months of legal wrangling to the point it passed a dreadful reality where there was no hope.

Originally Posted by Mick

We do not know how damaged his brain was, he did not have a diagnosed brain condition, they did not know everything.

They knew the damage that was occurring but they didn’t know the condition that was causing it.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...ition-14540668

We also don't know if the child was in pain and suffering in fact we the public have very little knowledge about anything this poor kid was dealing with and the people that did have the knowledge made a decision not lightly i suspect on what they felt was the best course of action. The public may have a passion for whatever reason about these cases but that doesn't mean a damn thing as we are not in a position to know whats best, thank god we're so knowledgeable to judge others and throw threats around as that helps everytime.

I would never agree with any threats to NHS staff, but I am allowed to disagree with their professional opinion.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Mick

We do not know how damaged his brain was, he did not have a diagnosed brain condition, they did not know everything.

I maintain my view. It should still not be left up to the State to decide on when someone should die, unless of course we are now deciding euthanasia should be legal.

I say this was Euthanasia in my eyes because they removed the ventilator, an act they would know to intentionally cause Alfie's eventual death.

Alfie was still responding to stimuli and reacting to his parents touch, his life should have been preserved until ALL medical avenues were exhausted, they were not because they were tied up in the hospital interfering in the parents wishes to take him abroad and they did so with months of litigation. It was the same with Charlie Gard, months and months of legal wrangling to the point it passed a dreadful reality where there was no hope.

The "state" has never been involved in this. The legal system has, which has to be involved when circumstances like this arise. The case was even taken out of this country to the ECHR. As you very well know the ECHR can overrule our legal system and state they chose to deny the appeal.

Given the ECHR's record of overruling UK court decisions that in this case the best interest of the child has been served.

Originally Posted by Mick

I would never agree with any threats to NHS staff, but I am allowed to disagree with their professional opinion.

Mick, no disrespect, but we are talking about professionals who have spent decades learning and treating very sick children - how can a non-professional’s opinion, with no experience in treating multiple very sick children, be compared as valid against their knowledge and experience.

If a team of experienced engineers tell me that my home is a fire risk, should I value my next door neighbor’s knowledge, who has changed a couple of fuses, as equivalent to theirs, and discount what they say?

You’re entitled to your opinion - but opinion is not equivalent to decades of professional knowledge, experience, and training.

Have you or anyone in your house never disagreed with a medical opinion?

The right to a second, third and fourth opinion does exist you know. Doctors are not always right. It was totally permissible for the parents to seek medical counsel elsewhere and in another country if they felt like it, only they were denied that right because of our nanny state.

Mick i gaurantee more then one doctor was involved in this and numerous others no one doctor would have decided the course of action and got it done for legal reasons if nothing else.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Mick

Have you or anyone in your house never disagreed with a medical opinion?

The right to a second, third and fourth opinion does exist you know. Doctors are not always right. It was totally permissible for the parents to seek medical counsel elsewhere and in another country if they felt like it, only they were denied that right because of our nanny state.

And therein lies the rub Mick. The Italian doctors did not have an alternative opinion. How could they his condition remains undiagnosed.

Why didn't Italy send one of the doctors over here to conduct an examination and present a second opinion? It would certainly have cost less, happened quicker and have no court involvement than sending the child over there to die.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by pip08456

The "state" has never been involved in this. The legal system has, which has to be involved when circumstances like this arise. The case was even taken out of this country to the ECHR. As you very well know the ECHR can overrule our legal system and state they chose to deny the appeal.

Given the ECHR's record of overruling UK court decisions that in this case the best interest of the child has been served.

That's the bit I'm not so keen on, apparently they were unrepresented when the early hearings occurred, how can it be fair that young parents of average education going through such trauma have to go up against some of the best barristers this country has to offer, doesn't sound like a fair fight to me

Originally Posted by pip08456

And therein lies the rub Mick. The Italian doctors did not have an alternative opinion. How could they his condition remains undiagnosed.

Why didn't Italy send one of the doctors over here to conduct an examination and present a second opinion? It would certainly have cost less, happened quicker and have no court involvement than sending the child over there to die.

Apparently Polish doctors came over and when you look at what the Italians offered it wasn't a cure, it was to prolong his suffering for two weeks whilst they ran some tests

The Polish doctor said he wasn’t dying, a day before he died.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/95...th-latest-news

Originally Posted by Mick

Have you or anyone in your house never disagreed with a medical opinion?

The right to a second, third and fourth opinion does exist you know. Doctors are not always right. It was totally permissible for the parents to seek medical counsel elsewhere and in another country if they felt like it, only they were denied that right because of our nanny state.

And the family got those opinions, and they all agreed with Alder Hey.

http://www.alderhey.nhs.uk/wp-conten...L-220318-1.pdf

We have a team at Alder Hey of the very best neurologists who have made every effort to investigate and find a way to treat Alfie. Because Alder Hey is a specialist centre we have good links with other centres and at an early stage we obtained external opinions to try and inform his treatment. Our doctors also invited the family to suggest experts that they thought might assist. The family identified two independent experts and a team of three experts from a hospital in Rome. We cooperated fully with them all and they are unanimous in their agreement that Alfie’s condition is irreversible and untreatable.

Have you consulted other experts/opinions?

Yes. Alfie’s condition and treatment have been discussed in multi-disciplinary team meetings at Alder Hey which has included specialist neurologists and radiologists. Alfie’s case has also been discussed with various other clinicians at Alder Hey.

At the beginning of last year, Alder Hey approached experts at Manchester Children’s Hospital and later on at Great Ormond Street Hospital. We have also liaised with other specialist centres regarding Alfie’s treatment.
Alfie’s parents have also asked for further opinions from hospitals in Stoke, Rome and Germany. We have welcomed this and arranged for these clinicians to visit and investigate Alfie’s case.

As we indicate above, all the experts are agreed that Alfie’s condition is untreatable and that there is no benefit to him of further investigation. All have agreed with our team at Alder Hey that in the tragic circumstances of Alfie’s case there is sadly no hope of recovery.

Three clinicians from Rome visited Alfie in September 2017, discussed his case with the team here and reviewed his notes. Following their detailed assessment, they agreed with the conclusions of the Alder Hey team that Alfie’s condition was effectively untreatable. Significantly, they noted that given Alfie’s epilepsy, there was a risk of him suffering further brain injury if he was transferred abroad. They have offered to take him to their hospital but agree there is nothing they can do to help or improve his condition.

In the High Court case in February, further independent paediatric experts were called in.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-cont...ey-v-evans.pdf

In the light of the parents real and entirely understandable concern about the underlying neurological diagnosis, Professor Judith Cross was instructed independently to review the clinical history, the EEG’s and the serial MRI’s. I shall turn in more detail to the MRI scans shortly but it is beyond doubt that they confirm a ‘rapidly progressive destructive brain disease’. Professor Cross is presently the Prince of Wales’ Chair of Childhood Epilepsy at UCL - Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health. She is also Honorary Consultant in Paediatric Neurology. She reviewed Alfie at the PICU on 15 June 2017...

...
It is important to highlight Professor Cross’s ultimate conclusion clearly. She told me that “even if Alfie is able to sustain respiration in the short term, on discontinuing ventilation, his respiratory effort will not sustain life.” She amplified this by stating that were Alfie to manage for the short term his brain will not recover in any event and he will continue to deteriorate with extremely short life expectancy. The following requires particular emphasis:

“All investigations have been performed that would have demonstrated a remediable or treatable cause and even if at this stage there was something to treat his brain the neurological function will not show any degree of recovery. I appreciate this news will be extremely difficult for the family. I do not feel further therapy is going to have an impact on seizures and even if seizures were reduced this is not going to change [Alfie’s] outcome.”