Brexit discussion

Originally Posted by Mick

It does not take 3 months to decide. So just shows this remark from the EU about the clock is ticking, was a steaming pile of BS from the EU, as usual.

It shouldn't take 3 months to decide, to be honest we should know already, yet here we are...

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Damien

It shouldn't take 3 months to decide, to be honest we should know already, yet here we are...

Of course they know what they want. It's a question of detail now, getting the wording right over the more controversial issues.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Of course they know what they want. It's a question of detail now, getting the wording right over the more controversial issues.

Trouble is they all want different things. That's why the cabinet needs to come together on a common approach.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Trouble is they all want different things. That's why the cabinet needs to come together on a common approach.

That's true enough. However their arguments should be in private and not leaked to the press.

However, this is 2017!

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

That's true enough. However their arguments should be in private and not leaked to the press.

However, this is 2017!

They all write in the press. Boris Johnson is a Telegraph columnist and David Davis is very close to Paul Dacre, Daily Mail editor and has provided him with exclusives.
I suspect the members of the cabinet will be sure to use the press to push home their views.

[jonbxx]

So the cabinet is meeting to day to discuss what post Brexit relationship we want with the EU - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42385002

Shouldn't this maybe have been discussed on the 24th June 2016, not 264 days after invoking article 50?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

So the cabinet is meeting to day to discuss what post Brexit relationship we want with the EU - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42385002

Shouldn't this maybe have been discussed on the 24th June 2016, not 264 days after invoking article 50?

Chaotic incompetence is what you call it sadly.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

So the cabinet is meeting to day to discuss what post Brexit relationship we want with the EU - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42385002

Shouldn't this maybe have been discussed on the 24th June 2016, not 264 days after invoking article 50?

They know what they want, obviously, but this is about detail now, and negotiation tactics.

I have learned through experience of policy making that if you try to go into too much detail before a negotiation, you will have spent many wasted hours of work! We've learned a lot from our Phase 1 negotiations with the EU. Now we go for the jugular!

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

They know what they want, obviously, but this is about detail now, and negotiation tactics.

I have learned through experience of policy making that if you try to go into too much detail before a negotiation, you will have spent many wasted hours of work! We've learned a lot from our Phase 1 negotiations with the EU. Now we go for the jugular!

Our options are pretty limited as this article explains.

There are essentially 3 reasons why customs borders exist:
1.To impose tariffs and quotas;
2.To confirm the imports’ countries of origin;
3.To ensure compliance with regulations and standards.

A free trade agreement with the EU would only get us over the first of these. To avoid the second would require continued membership of the EU Customs Union (or the negotiation of something similar). To avoid the third we would need to stay in the European Economic Area and abide by the rules of the single market.

This gives the government a problem. If it is serious about its guarantee of no border checks, it can’t fulfil its stated aim of leaving the Single Market and Customs Union. Yet, almost every day, a government minister repeats that the UK will do just that. The problem with this is that the moment the UK leaves the customs union, there have to be border checks. There is really no getting around this.

There is no high-tech solution to make the border disappear. The idea that border checks will take place somewhere discreet, far away from the border, is also nonsense. The law-abiding would comply but the point of border checks is to discourage the would-be law breakers. As officials from Norway and Switzerland explained to MPs in November, even the most technologically advanced countries with the most friendly relationships with their neighbours still have border checks. When you move from one customs regime to another, there is a visible border.

Even if we suspend disbelief and pretend that it would be possible to construct an invisible border, the government hasn’t made any plans to put the necessary systems and infrastructure in place. It has left it way too late to have anything ready for March 2019 and it is doubtful that the work could be completed by 2021. The technological solutions suggested would be expensive and would take time to implement. The National Audit Office isn’t convinced that the systems already in development will be ready in time for Brexit so there isn’t much likelihood of new ones being delivered on time.

https://flipchartfairytales.wordpres...s-are-limited/

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

They know what they want, obviously, but this is about detail now, and negotiation tactics.

I have learned through experience of policy making that if you try to go into too much detail before a negotiation, you will have spent many wasted hours of work! We've learned a lot from our Phase 1 negotiations with the EU. Now we go for the jugular!

Lol, the cabinet haven't a clue what they want, most of them having backed remain Those that do, want completely different things, mostly involving power for themselves

The public meanwhile are getting fed up with it all now they can begin to see the shambles unfolding, and the govt. letting everything that isn't Brexit rot.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ce-referendum/

More than half of Britons back staying in the European Union, with a 10-point lead for people who want to remain over those who still back Brexit, according to an opinion poll.

The BMG Research poll for The Independent found 51% favoured staying in the EU while 41% backed Brexit.

After people who said they did not know were pushed for an answer or excluded, the survey found 55.5% in favour of Remain and 44.5% backed Leave.

Brexit is going to make most people in this country worse off, the penny is starting to drop.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Lol, the cabinet haven't a clue what they want, most of them having backed remain Those that do, want completely different things, mostly involving power for themselves

The public meanwhile are getting fed up with it all now they can begin to see the shambles unfolding, and the govt. letting everything that isn't Brexit rot.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ce-referendum/


Brexit is going to make most people in this country worse off, the penny is starting to drop.

OMG an opinion poll saying nearly the same as before the referendum. They were wrong then what makes them right now?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Mr K

The public meanwhile are getting fed up with it all now they can begin to see the shambles unfolding, and the govt. letting everything that isn't Brexit rot.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ce-referendum/

Brexit is going to make most people in this country worse off, the penny is starting to drop.

People are starting to see through the con-trick. Surprised the Tory press are admitting this .. I do think that the Telegraph is more balanced & honest than it's peers in the right of center media stable.

Another Telegraph article tells what David Davis's real opinion is about this whole process:

This incredible quote from 15 years ago is coming back to haunt David Davis

On November 26, 2002 – during a debate about creating regional assemblies – Mr Davis warned MPs that referendums could be “dangerous” if “not done properly”.

They should be held, he explained, only if voters were told “exactly what they’re voting for… We shouldn’t ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper, and tell them to trust us to fill in the details afterwards.”

---------- Post added at 14:13 ---------- Previous post was at 14:10 ----------

Originally Posted by pip08456

OMG an opinion poll saying nearly the same as before the referendum. They were wrong then what makes them right now?

The important bit you missed (or decided to ignore):

“Our polling suggests that about a year ago, those who did not vote in the referendum were broadly split but today’s poll shows that they are now overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU, by a margin of more than four to one.”

Also note:

This poll shares the same methodology as BMG’s pre-Referendum polling, which consistently reported Leave ahead in the run-up to the EU referendum in 2016, and also called the correct outcome.

[pip08456]

The referendum was done properly. The was one thing and one thing only to decide. Remain in or come out of the EU. It was not a blank sheet of paper.

As regards the opinion poll, I didn't miss that point. It still doesn't mean it is a true representation of the whole of the nation. The referendum was.

Those that could be bothered to vote voted for Brexit by a majority. Those that couldn't be bothered can't winge about it now.

Never mind BMG, I am saying OMG, I cannot believe we are rehashing the same old stuff about how many voted vs. how many did not.

It does not matter. If people could not be arsed to vote, it is tough luck, their non participation for whatever reason when they had the opportunity to do so, they cannot be counted afterwards in a population percentage calculation vs. actual total turnout.

The Democratic process for brexit was the largest voter turnout in a generation and those that did turn out made their choice.

So that BMG poll is by far and wide irrelevant and inaccurate, a 1,500 sample size does not beat the 32,000,000 real sample size from the official poll done on June 23rd, 2016.

[jonbxx]

Ooof - FT research shows that the weekly hit to the British economy could be the same £350m that Leave campaigners promised to claw back https://www.ft.com/content/e3b29230-...9-c64b1c09b482