Brexit discussion

Originally Posted by Mick

Democracy?

What’s that?

There is no such thing, as this deal today shows.

I've said it before that it's easy to criticise what May tries to negotiate but harder to suggest alternatives. Especially from Vote Leave who were full of assurances before the vote but don't seem to have any ideas afterwards.

The fact that Remainers seem happy with today’s deal, more than leavers, shows what a complete shambles Brexit is going to be. Theresa the crackpot and weak appeaser. She needs to go.

In the end though Brexiters are still largely getting what they want. It seems the idea any concessions were made at all is upsetting them.

In other news the EU and Japan have agreed to a trade deal: https://www.ft.com/content/f0f093fb-...a-39a789c321a1

[Gavin78]

The way it's going at the minute tis like watching an episode of spitting image

---------- Post added at 12:53 ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

In other news the EU and Japan have agreed to a trade deal: https://www.ft.com/content/f0f093fb-...a-39a789c321a1

Well the EU might try and box the UK in now with trade deals we would go for that they would never have considered to undercut the UK

Originally Posted by Gavin78

Well the EU might try and box the UK in now with trade deals we would go for that they would never have considered to undercut the UK

They started talks in 2013 and had been looking at it before that.

But the EU will be competing against us now certainly.

Originally Posted by Damien

I've said it before that it's easy to criticise what May tries to negotiate but harder to suggest alternatives. Especially from Vote Leave who were full of assurances before the vote but don't seem to have any ideas afterwards.

I’ve said before Vote Leave, was a campaign, it’s objective was to get people to vote leave, it ceased to be a campaign after 23rd June 2016. So not sure what expections should be once it’s done what it set out to do.

Originally Posted by Damien

In the end though Brexiters are still largely getting what they want. It seems the idea any concessions were made at all is upsetting them.

Yes, because it’s taking the best part of 5/6 years to leave from when the vote took place, it’s really not acceptable the amount of appeasing May has done, to drag this process on and on.

Originally Posted by Mick

I’ve said before Vote Leave, was a campaign, it’s objective was to get people to vote leave, it ceased to be a campaign after 23rd June 2016. So not sure what expections should be once it’s done what it set out to do.

I am talking about the people in it. The Irish border wasn't going to be a problem and we held all the cards in talks for a trade deal. Many of them are in the cabinet so if they have yet to have any ideas of what we can do then the decision is left with May.

However if Vote Leave is done and those leading it are not responsible for their promises then there is even less reason for why May should be bound by it either.

She has a mandate to leave the European Union and that is what is happening. The terms are ultimately up to her and her government. Posters on here didn't even want Parliament to be involved!

Originally Posted by Mick

Yes, because it’s taking the best part of 5/6 years to leave from when the vote took place, it’s really not acceptable the amount of appeasing May has done, to drag this process on and on.

Alternately maybe people had a unrealistic idea of how strong our hand would be in these negotiations? The reason we have to sort out the border is because Ireland demanded it be so and the rest of the bloc stood behind them.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Told you it wouldn't really happen Mick ! Brexit is a name only. Mainstream politicians maybe mad but they're not that mad.

I think Theresa is a mastermind, she's seen off the swivel eyed loons and totally out manoeuvred Gove/Boris. They've said what a wonderful deal it is today, and I really don't think they've totally understood it.

Stop referring to leave voters as swivel eyed loons.

You can kiss goodbye to me having any respect for Democratic principles ever again. There is none in this country. Voter apathy for life here I come and this is the real danger here, millions of people who will now never vote again and wtf will blame them/us?

The democratic decision has been shafted. So there is no point in holding future democratic processes, because the result can be neglected and ignored if it’s not liked.

Because it's not being ignored, we're leaving.....The vote didn't specify exactly what 'leave' would mean and they have no way of knowing.

For example the current path of the deal means no free movement, no ECJ oversight after eight years and we're not part of any of their trade deals.

Originally Posted by Damien

Because it's not being ignored, we're leaving.....

In name only, even Mr K says it like it is.

Leaving in a half-hearted way, not what I envisioned when I cast my leave vote.

It was said in a £9,000,000 Government leaflet the Government will act on what we the people decide. What a joke and what a complete travesty future democracy will hold in the U.K.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Stop referring to leave voters as swivel eyed loons.

You can kiss goodbye to me having any respect for Democratic principles ever again. There is none in this country. Voter apathy for life here I come and this is the real danger here, millions of people who will now never vote again and wtf will blame them/us?

The democratic decision has been shafted. So there is no point in holding future democratic processes, because the result can be neglected and ignored if it’s not liked.

It was only ever in Brextremists' heads that the vote was for a hard Brexit so no democratic process has been thwarted. Both leave campaigns promised a borderless Ireland. When I asked on here how this could be achieved, the silence was deafening. As others have said, it's easier to criticise than to solve such situations.

I get that many people feel that Farage and BoJo fooled them with talk of no big payments to the EU or that no deal was better than a bad deal. It was naïve to believe this and people can only blame themselves for believing such nonsense and not Theresa May for trying to make the best of a bad hand.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

It’s accurate.

Why? as a leader has to give and take IMO.

Originally Posted by Mick

In name only, even Mr K says it like it is.

Leaving in a half-hearted way, not what I envisioned when I cast my leave vote.

It was said in a £9,000,000 Government leaflet the Government will act on what we the people decide. What a joke and what a complete travesty future democracy will hold in the U.K.

The Government aren't mindreaders. What did you have in mind?

I think it's reasonably accepted that free-movement has the biggest issue people voted on and that'll stop. Leaving the ECJ was another, 'make our own laws', and we're leaving that.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

The fact that Remainers seem happy with today’s deal, more than leavers, shows what a complete shambles Brexit is going to be. Theresa the crackpot and weak appeaser. She needs to go. .

So because the deal is not agreeable to some on the Brexit side that makes her a crackpot or appeaser as what would you suggest Mick?.

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:40 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

Democracy?

What’s that?

There is no such thing, as this deal today shows.

But was not the referendum a democratised vote? which you thoroughly agreed with it and its result and have quoted it since on countless occasions.

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

She has a mandate to leave the European Union and that is what is happening. The terms are ultimately up to her and her government. Posters on here didn't even want Parliament to be involved!

So much for democracy...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Damien

Because it's not being ignored, we're leaving.....The vote didn't specify exactly what 'leave' would mean and they have no way of knowing.

For example the current path of the deal means no free movement, no ECJ oversight after eight years and we're not part of any of their trade deals.

It will be a typical British fudge which will probably represent the country's views far more accurately than either the leave or remain camps ever did!

[denphone]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

It will be a typical British fudge which will probably represent the country's views far more accurately than either the leave or remain camps ever did!

Give and take on both sides Andrew.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Damien

Posters on here didn't even want Parliament to be involved!

Very undemocratic of them. Parliament = democracy and we should respect it.