Brexit discussion

Originally Posted by daveeb

I'd say Mr K has a constant theme of making astute observations, far more persuasive than the predictable personal rebuttals he receives.

I won't ask you to forgive me, for not believing what you say.

Far more nothing, given that World Heath Organisation said in 2013, says the shortage of Nurses is a GLOBAL issue not Brexit.

1 NOVEMBER 2013 | RECIFE, BRAZIL - The world will be short of 12.9 million health-care workers by 2035; today, that figure stands at 7.2 million. A WHO report released today warns that the findings – if not addressed now – will have serious implications for the health of billions of people across all regions of the world.

The report, "A universal truth: No health without a workforce", identifies several key causes. They include an ageing health workforce with staff retiring or leaving for better paid jobs without being replaced, while inversely, not enough young people are entering the profession or being adequately trained. Increasing demands are also being put on the sector from a growing world population with risks of noncommunicable diseases (e.g. cancer, heart disease, stroke etc.) increasing.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/...e-shortage/en/

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

I won't ask you to forgive me, for not believing what you say.
Far more nothing, given that World Heath Organisation said in 2013, says the shortage of Nurses is a GLOBAL issue not Brexit.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/...e-shortage/en/

No one's disputing that's there's a global shortage of nurses.

The debate is why there has been a 90% decrease in EU nurses coming to the UK in the 12 months to September 2017.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...s-90-per-cent/

[daveeb]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

No one's disputing that's there's a global shortage of nurses.

The debate is why there has been a 90% decrease in EU nurses coming to the UK in the 12 months to September 2017.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...s-90-per-cent/

Absolutely. Shortage or not, the UK is (was) a desirable place to come and work for those with suitable qualifications so we used to be be near the top of the pecking order for those from Europe seeking work.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

No one's disputing that's there's a global shortage of nurses.

The debate is why there has been a 90% decrease in EU nurses coming to the UK in the 12 months to September 2017.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...s-90-per-cent/

It’s called competition. Because there is a world shortage, health authorities across the globe are competing against each other.

Brexit could be one factor, not denying it is not playing a part, but it’s one of many, but for Remainers to use Brexit as the only scapegoat, is a bit of a easy and convenient cop out.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Mick

It’s called competition. Because there is a world shortage, health authorities across the globe are competing against each other.

Brexit could be one factor, not denying it is not playing a part, but it’s one of many, but for Remainers to use Brexit as the only scapegoat, is a bit of a easy and convenient cop out.

Yes well that isn't going to change any time soon - it's all very familiar.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

It’s called competition. Because there is a world shortage, health authorities across the globe are competing against each other.

Brexit could be one factor, not denying it is not playing a part, but it’s one of many, but for Remainers to use Brexit as the only scapegoat, is a bit of a easy and convenient cop out.

I didn't only blame Brexit Mick. The removal of bursaries is a crazy move in a profession that is desperately in need of recruits. For graduates nurses pay is low, making them take out loans to train, in increasingly stressful over stretched workplaces, plus pathetic stuff like pay for parking. It all makes it less attractive. You'd think there is a deliberate running down of the NHS (cynical me !).

However the nosedive in EU nurses (and other NHS staff) since Brexit isn't a coincidence and could be the final straw. They hold the health service together as home grown recruits just don't exist in nearly enough numbers. We're an ageing population & can't afford to lose these people to more welcoming countries. At the moment we're saying we don't want you; this isn't just government, it's the public that need to change their attitude and value those that come here and run vital public services.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

It’s called competition. Because there is a world shortage, health authorities across the globe are competing against each other.

Brexit could be one factor, not denying it is not playing a part, but it’s one of many, but for Remainers to use Brexit as the only scapegoat, is a bit of a easy and convenient cop out.

Lack of foresight and planning is another.

[pip08456]

Another is the English language test introduced around the same time as Brexit but Mr K conveniently forgets that or doesn't think it's a factor.

[daveeb]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Another is the English language test introduced around the same time as Brexit but Mr K conveniently forgets that or doesn't think it's a factor.

I wouldn't think that would be much of a problem for qualified Europeans applying for a job here. Many of them have better english language skills than the native population.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by daveeb

I wouldn't think that would be much of a problem for qualified Europeans applying for a job here. Many of them have better english language skills than the native population.

The NMC appear to disagree with you. From the article Mr L linked to. He does tend to omit details that don't fit his agenda.

The NMC pointed out this change in new joiners was also likely to have been influenced by the introduction of English language testing around the same time as the Brexit vote in the summer of 2016.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

It’s called competition. Because there is a world shortage, health authorities across the globe are competing against each other.

Brexit could be one factor, not denying it is not playing a part, but it’s one of many, but for Remainers to use Brexit as the only scapegoat, is a bit of a easy and convenient cop out.

It's the remain-supporting Telegraph that mentioned Brexit. If they could have found another factor, you know they would have done.
Personally, I do agree that the English language test will have had some influence but as English is the second language in most of Europe, I can't see it accounting for a 90% drop.
Since Theresa May's speech in Venice, hopefully we will see an uplift in EU nursing staff in the future. The UK is still a welcoming and diverse nation.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by pip08456

The NMC appear to disagree with you. From the article Mr L linked to. He does tend to omit details that don't fit his agenda.

No, it's all down to Brexit and categorically nothing else. In fact if we decide to stay in the EU it'd all be perfect as we can see from the total lack of problems throughout Europe except here...

[jonbxx]

Even the Health Secretary admits that the drop in numbers of nurses may be caused at least in part by Brexit - https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/po...021907.article

As ever, there is no single cause with these things but the appearance of this country not wanting immigrants, the accompanying rise in hate crimes in the last year (link - http://uk.businessinsider.com/hate-c...rendum-2017-10) and the drop in spending power on GBP back home since the referendum can’t help.

As an aside, my thinking is that if this country is short of a certain skill but using immigrants is a political hot potato, we should be training up home grown talent and making training easy by dropping tuition fees for designated courses.

[Gavin78]

Look at the state of Europe, Greece is still under German control, Spain is falling apart, we don't have as much say in Europe as we thought we had (proven by Carmeron) Junkers sarcastic comments all the time about the UK.

We are doing the right thing pulling out before it all comes down taking us with it. better we make our own way while we can

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

As an aside, my thinking is that if this country is short of a certain skill but using immigrants is a political hot potato, we should be training up home grown talent and making training easy by dropping tuition fees for designated courses.

Home grown talent should always be preferred and apprenticeships are making a comeback all but slowly.

The immigration for skills being a hot potato was a fact but within mostly the building industry where employers were giving preference to labour from eastern europe as freedom of movement was a good excuse to get cheap labour.

What people seem to forget was that the whole push by the labour government to get school leavers into University education was not to raise the standard of education in this country but to reduce unemployment figures during their term of office at the time. It made them look good.

They were the party to introduce tuition fees as well in 1998.