Post-Brexit Thread

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

The problem with that idea Damien is that any of the 48% that could take part in the brexit process are completely committed to us remaining in the EU and that's the only option as far as their concerned. Including them will create far more problems then it might solve and they would do everything possible to subvert the referendum.

Well that's the governments prerogative. Still the 48% still have a voice and are entitled to use it. The vote entitles, obliges even, the government to go ahead with Brexit but it doesn't mean the 48% have to be quiet.

I think it's a mistake the way the Government seem to have chosen a very confrontational approach to those who lost the referendum as if it were a landslide. They seemed to delight in stirring the worst fears of Remainers such as refusing to guarantee the status of EU workers which, since they almost certainly will be ok, was just pointlessly provocative.

There will be hard Remainers that will stop at nothing but that's not the bulk of the 48%. Many are normal people with concerns about their jobs, pensions and so on. They should be brought on board and not dismissed as Remoaners. I believe most people Brexit or Remain are very similar and want similar things, the ideologues are a minority in both camps.

We've seen in Scotland what happens when you make the issue all-or-nothing and I think May's conference speech was the equivalent of Cameron's speech the morning after the Independence vote. A spurned opportunity to call for a consensus in favor of appeasing to your base.

Originally Posted by Damien

It doesn't mean you're no longer allowed to have an opinion or to think it was a mistake.

Would supporters of Brexit have shut up about the flaws in the EU had Remain won? Thrown themselves into the European Project wholeheartedly? Of course not nor should they have. Democracy allows dissenting views and the idea Brexit would put an end to this argument is mistaken.

There is debating Damien, but having a debate, should not allow people who have real issues accepting the result, to apply prejudice and lay subtle insults or digs at the brexiteers, or being directly or indirectly provocative or offensive. I won't put up with it, not on this forum, nor will I accept these wild views that the leave voters some how made a mistake. Some may feel that they had, that's ok but let them admit that. I won't have anyone telling me or dictating to me, that I made a mistake, or I had no idea what I was doing. Clue: I did and I still do and I still do not regret it, at all-end of.

Originally Posted by Mr K

There was a 72% turnout at the referendum, meaning those that voted in favour only represented 37% of the electorate. That ignores those that aren't registered to vote, mostly the young who this will affect most. If you take the UK population as a whole only 27% voted to leave. The mandate is far from convincing.

The problem for Brexiters is they are only now just waking up the economic results of their decision. However they'd have to admit they'd been duped, which no one wants to do. It isn't totally their fault, we've become so cynical about politicians/dodgy dossiers that no one believes the figures they spout at elections/referendums. However this time some of them were right.

You can attempt to de-legitimise the result any way you like, it won't alter reality. Democracy is what it is; imperfect, but better than any other means of government we have yet devised. A result derived by a tried and tested means, with a solid turnout (love the way you try to co-opt everyone who didn't vote as a disenfranchised remainer, by the way), leading to a clear majority result.

And as a hard-line remainer who is clearly in deep denial, I don't think I'll be paying too much attention to your claims to know what those of us who voted leave are thinking or feeling right now.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well that's the governments prerogative. Still the 48% still have a voice and are entitled to use it. The vote entitles, obliges even, the government to go ahead with Brexit but it doesn't mean the 48% have to be quiet.

I think it's a mistake the way the Government seem to have chosen a very confrontational approach to those who lost the referendum as if it were a landslide. They seemed to delight in stirring the worst fears of Remainers such as refusing to guarantee the status of EU workers which, since they almost certainly will be ok, was just pointlessly provocative.

There will be hard Remainers that will stop at nothing but that's not the bulk of the 48%. Many are normal people with concerns about their jobs, pensions and so on. They should be brought on board and not dismissed as Remoaners. I believe most people Brexit or Remain are very similar and want similar things, the ideologues are a minority in both camps.

We've seen in Scotland what happens when you make the issue all-or-nothing and I think May's conference speech was the equivalent of Cameron's speech the morning after the Independence vote. A spurned opportunity to call for a consensus in favor of appeasing to your base.

l respect totally the Brexit decision of the electorate as that is how it is but if some and l say some Brexiteer's think we should all keep quiet and go into a little dark corner and not debate rationally the significant consequences of the Brexit decision and what it all entails for all our futures then that is rather disappointing.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

The problem with that idea Damien is that any of the 48% that could take part in the brexit process are completely committed to us remaining in the EU and that's the only option as far as their concerned. Including them will create far more problems then it might solve and they would do everything possible to subvert the referendum.

Theresa May is one of the 48%. If she wasn't leading the country I'm not sure who from the Brexit side of Government would step into her shoes.

Originally Posted by denphone

l respect totally the Brexit decision of the electorate as that is how it is but if some and l say some Brexiteer's think we should all keep quiet and go into a little dark corner and not debate rationally the significant consequences of the Brexit decision and what it all entails for all our futures then that is rather disappointing.

This is not about stifling the conversation or insisting the remain side stays silent, I have not done anything to suggest or change this. But what I am not going to put up with is people being derogatory towards the brexiteers, that's what I am going on about. So no need to be disappointed.

Perhaps that has to work both ways, with derogatory names like 'remoaners' being deemed inappropriate as well, as well as calling people 'traitors' if they don't fully subscribe to others' views?

[Mr K]

There seems to be a lot of anger on here, manly from people trying to convince themselves mostly that they made the right choice.

The 'hard Brexit' route we seem to be hell bent on is burying heads in the sand even more. The figures for the decision don't add up, heart has ruled the head for many.

Originally Posted by Hugh

Perhaps that has to work both ways, with derogatory names like 'remoaners' being deemed inappropriate as well, as well as calling people 'traitors' if they don't fully subscribe to others' views?

I don't consider the term 'remoaner' inappropriate, it's a descriptive term, not necessarily derogatory or offensive, to insult, is not implied here nor do I see any obvious malice and clearly, this must be the case when I have noticed a few people, on the remain side, have added it to the user titles.

Just out of interest, I have checked if there is a definition of Remoaner yet... It's been added to the Urban dictionary, it comes up with the following:-

Remoaner
Remoaner

Ri-mohn-er

Noun:

A person who is outraged and frustrated over the result of the European Union membership referendum in the United Kingdom which the vote took place on the 23rd of June of 2016 and relies on protests against the UK government and for the EU to prevent Brexit.

(Do understand that a Remoaner does not represent all Remain voters and supporters, who most would happily accept the vote and are able to understand why that the majority of the British people had voted to Leave.)

A Remoaner may want to:

• 1. Demand of the UK government to ignore the referendum result (for example, to not invoke Article 50).
  
• 2. Demand of the UK government to launch another EU referendum.
  
• 3. Demand of the UK government to not invoke Article 50.
  
• 4. Declare that the result of the referendum is 'only' provisional and thus the UK government should take no heed of the result.
  
• 5. Tend to feel that people that who voted and/or supported the Leave campaign are either mentally unstable or mentally incapacitated to vote properly.
  
• 6. And finally, take part in numerous street protests 'for Europe' (they mean the EU) and against democracy in cities across the UK in ever-decreasing sizes.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=remoaner

It's just like when someone is constantly not happy about something, they are classed as a moaner, again, to insult is not implied, i.e no malice intention.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mr K

There seems to be a lot of anger on here, manly from people trying to convince themselves mostly that they made the right choice.

The 'hard Brexit' route we seem to be hell bent on is burying heads in the sand even more. The figures for the decision don't add up, heart has ruled the head for many.

Whether people have made the right choice or the wrong choice Mick and Hugh's point is that it is important that both sides of the divide remain civil to each other and don't start to throw derogatory comments at each other and debate things in a rational adult debating way.

Originally Posted by Mick

I don't consider the term 'remoaner' inappropriate, it's a descriptive term, not necessarily derogatory or offensive, to insult, is not implied here nor do I see any obvious malice and clearly, this must be the case when I have noticed a few people, on the remain side, have added it to the user titles.

That's me though and it's meant to be ironic as I am not really one for caring if people call me a Remoaner or Traitor.

[1andrew1]

In lighter news, Brexit could block a reunion of The Smiths!
http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/6546...r-eu-nationals

Originally Posted by Damien

That's me though and it's meant to be ironic as I am not really one for caring if people call me a Remoaner or Traitor.

Check out the descriptive terms numbered 1 - 6 for Remoaner, in my previous post, if you strongly feel any of those apply to you, everything stays as is (optionally), but if none of those apply, you're not really a Remoaner.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

In lighter news, Brexit could block a reunion of The Smiths!
http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/6546...r-eu-nationals

That brings back a few memories from a long time ago.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

In lighter news, Brexit could block a reunion of The Smiths!
http://www.theweek.co.uk/brexit/6546...r-eu-nationals

Maybe Dave C could fill in as he's not up to much.
"I promised a referendum and I got a referendum and heaven knows I'm miserable now..."