Post-Brexit Thread

[denphone]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I have absolute zero trust in our supposed politicians who have time and time again screwed people over to benefit only themselves. I wouldn't trust them to feed my dog never mind run a country.

Personally, and as I've stated before whilst the EU is not without it's faults. It has given us many positives.

These are exactly my thoughts.

[Osem]

The main issue isn't what the EU has or hasn't given us (there are pros and cons), it's is the EU going to survive and prosper? Given what's going on (and has been for quite a few years now) what signs are there that the Eurocrats have learned anything and/or that the EU has finally turned the corner? Sadly, I don't see any...

[techguyone]

I wouldn't want to predict anything like 15 years ahead, europe (or the EU) may not even exist, at least we'll be clear of it prior to that, and already set up.

I doubt the current status quo we have would be the same in 15 years in any case.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Osem

Yup, it's not as though the EU is currently a model for success is it. It's lurched from groteseque wine lakes and butter mountains to appalling austerity, huge unemployment, social unrest, out of control migration and serious cross border antagonism all exacerbated by institutionalised dogma, dithering and in-fighting along the way.

I'd have some sympathy with the remain standpoint if the EU was actually working but it's never been more divided IMHO and what lies ahead doesn't look good to me. Why would anyone want to be tethered to all that?

I think a lot of remainers are in denial about just how bad things are over there when the constant flow of EU migrants into the UK ought to suggest the clear answer. The EU isn't what it could and should have been. It clearly isn't capable of reform and therefore, regretfully, we need to get out and have made the right decision.

And that's the EU's fault because........

[Osem]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

And that's the EU's fault because........

And it's not the EU's fault because?....

These issues have been discussed here many many times and there's really no point going over them again. Admitting Greece into the Eurozone would be a very good start but there are many other reasons and the EU's one size fits all economic policy would be the biggest.

The problems the EU is facing aren't conjecture, they're happening. If massive, long term, unemployment in Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, France etc. etc. isn't the EU's fault or even its responsibility what on Earth is the EU for?

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Osem

And it's not the EU's fault because?...

Would you like to answer the question?

I can find no evidence supporting what you're saying. If you have some, please present it.

Again, you seem to be not fully reading posts. No one is saying that the EU is not without problems, some significant. BUT people who are calling for 'hard brexit' and 'people will want to trade with us' is the stuff of pure conjecture. Only a tactically naive/inept individual makes a decision without having at least some firm evidence as to what the alternative is.

Fault and responsibility are two completely different things. Whilst the EU may have to take it's share of responsibility for long term unemployment rates in the countries you have specified it is not necessarily the EU's fault that they have occurred.

'Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread'

[Osem]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Would you like to answer the question?

Try again.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Osem

Try again.

If you're sole aim is in being petty and one upmanship then I'll just leave it there.. however, if you're actually interested in having a reasonable intelligent conversation then lets continue.

Over to you...

[Osem]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Would you like to answer the question?

I can find no evidence supporting what you're saying. If you have some, please present it.

Again, you seem to be not fully reading posts. No one is saying that the EU is not without problems, some significant. BUT people who are calling for 'hard brexit' and 'people will want to trade with us' is the stuff of pure conjecture. Only a tactically naive/inept individual makes a decision without having at least some firm evidence as to what the alternative is.

Fault and responsibility are two completely different things. Whilst the EU may have to take it's share of responsibility for long term unemployment rates in the countries you have specified it is not necessarily the EU's fault that they have occurred.

'Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread'

I have read what you said.

If you cannot see that the EU's economic policy is directly responsible for creating unemployment in the Southern European states (in particular) to the benefit of Germany then I'm afraid nothing I can say will change that. Their policy failure has created and/or exacerbated these problems and I'd say that means it's their fault. Who would you blame?...

There's an entire thread on the Eurozone and all the arguments and evidence is there ad nauseam but the adverse effects of having no capacity to vary internal interest rates or devalue your own currency in times of need is undeniable.

---------- Post added at 11:40 ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

If you're sole aim is in being petty and one upmanship then I'll just leave it there.. however, if you're actually interested in having a reasonable intelligent conversation then lets continue.

Over to you...

Petty? I was referring to you reading my original post again as I'd added information in the time between our posts.

You talked about reading posts remember.

If you want a debate on the failure of the EU's economic policy and my feelings on it you can search the Eurozone thread. There's no point going over it all again here so I've said all I need to and given you a starter for ten.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Osem

I have read what you said.

If you cannot see that the EU's economic policy is directly responsible for creating unemployment in the Southern European states (in particular) to the benefit of Germany then I'm afraid nothing I can say will change that. Their policy failure has created and/or exacerbated these problems and I'd say that means it's their fault. Who would you blame?...

There's an entire thread on the Eurozone and all the arguments and evidence is there ad nauseam but the adverse effects of having no capacity to vary internal interest rates or devalue your own currency in times of need is undeniable.

OK, so, we have a slight change in your original statement. The EU is directly responsible for economic failure in southern member states. not as a whole as per your original post.

Would you agree that not only Germany has benefitted from this?

Also, have you considered what happens IF as a country we got it wrong? whilst we have disagreed on many things on these forums, I don't doubt your intelligence. As such I can't believe that you haven't thought about what could happen IF the exit goes wrong

So i guess it comes down to a few things.

1) Do you believe our politicians our competent enough (and i see no evidence to support that they are) to be able to manage this situation.
2) What is your plan for IF it goes horribly wrong?

As a remainer, if and when the sun comes out I'm prepared to take it on the chin and say 'You know what I got it wrong'

If it all goes horribly pear shaped what will you say?

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

What makes you think that we will be better off out?

Because Junker and Strassbourg won't be able to unilaterally tell us what to do. That is a massive thing.
They had taken away our right to self determination and it's only by sheer fluke that we've managed to take back control.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Because Junker and Strassbourg won't be able to unilaterally tell us what to do. That is a massive thing.
They had taken away our right to self determination and it's only by sheer fluke that we've managed to take back control.

What makes you think our politicians are fit and competent to

a) run the country and ensure are freedoms and rights are preserved (something the EU has had massive input in)
b) secure the deal that the UK needs to prosper and grow.
c) not take the UK into a political and economic 'dark ages'

Genuinely interested

[Osem]

Germany has benefitted far more than any other nation due to the fact that were in not in the Eurozone the DeutscheMark would have been considerably higher thus affecting their export markets. The EU is supposed to be a common club, I don't see it as a measure of success that one part of the club does a whole lot better at the expense of another due to the undue influence of Germany over the whole. That's a failure and it's another direct cause of the problems I mentioned.

I've stated many time before that we are in between a rock and a hard place. Leaving is no panacea but neither is staying in, far from it in fact. My view on balance is that we have a better chance to survive and prosper outside the confines of the EU. We can determine our own policies according to our own needs and in a fast moving world this is vital. There are no guarantees of anything but if things go wrong at least we can decide how to react and proceed. Take a look at the problems in Greece for example to see how impossible their situation is in the EU with no power to take the decisions which are right for Greece.

As for Plan B, what's the EU's Plan B in the face of its severe problems? They no more have one than the UK does. In fact their refusal to countenance a change of direction is the root cause of the referendum result IMHO. All I know is that, on its own, the UK will be able to decide and implement whatever policy is deemed appropriate far more quickly than the EU ever would. We'll be able to make the decisions we need to make in the circumstances we find ourselves in and we can't do this in the EU.

No, that doesn't guarantee anything but I'm old enough to realise that nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes. We can all suggest what we'd say if it all goes wrong but there's no comfort in that. None of us know what's going to happen, we can only make decisions based on our knowledge, experience and intuition. You speak as if the outcome will be clear, quantifiable and unequivocal, when you've admitted yourself that after decades of practice the EU is far from perfect. Who'll be the arbiter of what the definition of success is? GDP? Earnings per head of population? Unemployment levels? Quality of services? Quality of life?

If the EU becomes a Utopia and the UK descends into Third World status in the next few years then of course people will say it's a disaster and we should have stayed in. If the reverse is the case then they'll say the opposite. What does it matter what people say? We have argued for the right to determine our membership, we've decided to get out and what we need to do now if stop arguing about what's done and get on with trying to ensure we get the best possible result from it.

I think we're more likely to be better off out than in and if I'm wrong about that well so what? You think the opposite and if you're wrong so what? We have our views, I've explained mine and that's the best I can do. If I had a crystal ball I'd have used it.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

And that's the EU's fault because........

Well they, as we, and the rest of the world were all complicit in the financial crisis, Spanish, Italian and Greek banks were all hugely over leveraged - and still are.

The single currency of the EU was a big factor in this, and probably should have failed at this point but in order to ensure it didn't fail huge austerity was forced onto Greece.

At one point it was even suggested appointing a German EU commissioner to over see the Greek financial issue.

http://the-greek-tragedy.blogspot.co...1_archive.html

Germany has suggested that a European commissioner should take effective control of Greek fiscal policy to ensure the country accepts austerity. Evangelos Venizelos, the Greek finance minister, rejected that plan, saying it would undermine Greece’s “national identity and dignity

The EU has no regard for sovereignty. But neither is it a federal system.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

What makes you think our politicians are fit and competent to

a) run the country and ensure are freedoms and rights are preserved (something the EU has had massive input in)
b) secure the deal that the UK needs to prosper and grow.
c) not take the UK into a political and economic 'dark ages'

Genuinely interested

You're changing the subject. I asked the remainers here:
"What is it about being controlled by an unelected, anti-democratic bureaucracy that you remainers like so much? "
I await the answer