Post-Brexit Thread

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

So everyone who voted to remain isn't loyal to the nation, is unpatriotic and should be ashamed. Gotcha.

Not everyone. However, what do you think of the many I spoke to who were voting in purely because brexit would put their job at risk or cost them money?
What about those who thought that it was a good thing the the european court had precedence over our high court? How about those who were unconcerned that Junker could basically tell the UK what to do and we had to do it. Unpatriotic?

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Not everyone. However, what do you think of the many I spoke to who were voting in purely because brexit would put their job at risk or cost them money?

People have mortgages and families to support. It's not a surprise that they would place that above something like the CJEU which is mostly going to be an abstract thing in their day to day lives. Calling them Unpatriotic because they placed their home or their families above their feelings about the EU is unfair.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

I assume you're British or a citizen of the commonwealth otherwise you wouldn't have been able to vote?

British. Both parents Latvian immigrants (displaced persons after WW2)

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Originally Posted by Damien

People have mortgages and families to support. It's not a surprise that they would place that above something like the CJEU which is mostly going to be an abstract thing in their day to day lives. Calling them Unpatriotic because they placed their home or their families above their feelings about the EU is unfair.

These are very well off people I'm talking about. Putting self interest above their country. I think my accusation is fair.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

How about those who were unconcerned that Junker could basically tell the UK what to do and we had to do it. Unpatriotic?

They were unconcerned as they know it's absolutely nonsense! Speak to many informed people in Europe and they're always concerned about the UK's huge EU influence, not the other way round. But we're going to lose that influence because people didn't take the time to establish the facts and voted on misinformation like £350m a week to the NHS and voted unpatriotically for a poorer and less powerful country. A decision that our patriotic Brits in Gibraltar are very nervous about.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Millions of patriots voted to remain. They voted for the UK to continue punching above its weight in Europe. They voted for the UK to continue to veto matters they disagreed with like a single European army. They voted for the UK to continue to influence legislation that will impact it whether in or out of Europe. They voted to listen to NATO when they said that Europe was safer with the UK in the EU. They listened to the leader of the free world, President Obama, when he said as a loyal friend of the UK that the US would prefer us to remain in the EU championing our shared values.

If they voted 'in' they voted for the UK to cease to exist as a political entity because the EU was in the process of consuming it (and the rest of the European countries)
As for your comment about Obama, I assume you are joking.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

If they voted 'in' they voted for the UK to cease to exist as a political entity because the EU was in the process of consuming it (and the rest of the European countries)
As for your comment about Obama, I assume you are joking.

The UK would not need to lose its political entity and you provide no evidence for that. Last time I checked Obama was the leader of the Free World though doubtless some will argue that it's Kim Kardashian or Katie Hopkins.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Not everyone. However, what do you think of the many I spoke to who were voting in purely because brexit would put their job at risk or cost them money?
What about those who thought that it was a good thing the the european court had precedence over our high court? How about those who were unconcerned that Junker could basically tell the UK what to do and we had to do it. Unpatriotic?

What's unpatriotic about not wanting the country to be poorer? You're talking about your own costs, what about those who may suffer during this five years of rough times who can't afford to lose half a million quid?

We pool our sovereignty in various ways with various bodies, from the WTO down.

The idea that one man can tell the UK what to do is absurd. Juncker has no power over the UK at all. Without the agreement of Council of Ministers and EU Parliament nothing is imposed on the UK.

For your comments on sovereignty and patriotism it's pretty obvious you have a strong dislike of the EU, describing its influence as malevolent, and the claim we were going to be consumed somehow is paranoia.

Joining a European superstate would've required a referendum. We rejected the Euro and Schengen, why would we suddenly agree to become part of a federalist EU?

Other EU nations voluntarily joined the Euro and Schengen, fully aware it was part of an ongoing integration process. We abstained, and any attempts to cede further powers require a referendum.

It was accepted that ever-closer union didn't suit the UK before this referendum. Obviously not an issue now.

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------

Originally Posted by Ramrod

What about those who thought that it was a good thing the the european court had precedence over our high court? Unpatriotic?

We co-founded the European Court of Human Rights and are subject to it. We are subject to, amongst other things, the International Criminal Court.

Your concept of patriotism is a fantasy that hasn't existed in decades.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

What's unpatriotic about not wanting the country to be poorer? You're talking about your own costs, what about those who may suffer during this five years of rough times who can't afford to lose half a million quid?

We pool our sovereignty in various ways with various bodies, from the WTO down.

The idea that one man can tell the UK what to do is absurd. Juncker has no power over the UK at all. Without the agreement of Council of Ministers and EU Parliament nothing is imposed on the UK.

For your comments on sovereignty and patriotism it's pretty obvious you have a strong dislike of the EU, describing its influence as malevolent, and the claim we were going to be consumed somehow is paranoia.

Joining a European superstate would've required a referendum. We rejected the Euro and Schengen, why would we suddenly agree to become part of a federalist EU?

Other EU nations voluntarily joined the Euro and Schengen, fully aware it was part of an ongoing integration process. We abstained, and any attempts to cede further powers require a referendum.

It was accepted that ever-closer union didn't suit the UK before this referendum. Obviously not an issue now.

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------



We co-founded the European Court of Human Rights and are subject to it. We are subject to, amongst other things, the International Criminal Court.

Your concept of patriotism is a fantasy that hasn't existed in decades.

The reason that it hasn't existed for decades is because of the influence of the EU and it's left wing fellow travellers.
I'm amazed that you still can't see that the ultimate aim of the EU is to do away with the concept of national sovereignty and the implemantation of complete fiscal and political control of all the constituent countries.....at which point they cease to exist as indendent entities. Voting to stay in the EU, knowing all that, is an unpatriotic act.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

The reason that it hasn't existed for decades is because of the influence of the EU and it's left wing fellow travellers.
I'm amazed that you still can't see that the ultimate aim of the EU is to do away with the concept of national sovereignty and the implemantation of complete fiscal and political control of all the constituent countries.....at which point they cease to exist as indendent entities. Voting to stay in the EU, knowing all that, is an unpatriotic act.

Tell the 96% of residents in Gibraltar who voted to remain that they're unpatriotic and I think they'll convince you otherwise!
As others have done their best to explain to you - the UK would not have to join a more integrated EU. We opted out of the Euro, we said no to the Shengen agreement. Knowing that, why on earth would anyone suggest that it is unpatriotic to remain in the EU?
Remember, leaving the EU means a poorer country with less money to spend on our armed forces, schools and hospitals.
And, in opening up the markets in areas like unbundling of phone exchanges, the EU is definitely not left wing, it's a free market philosophy.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Tell the 96% of residents in Gibraltar who voted to remain that they're unpatriotic and I think they'll convince you otherwise!
As others have done their best to explain to you - the UK would not have to join a more integrated EU. We opted out of the Euro, we said no to the Shengen agreement. Knowing that, why on earth would anyone suggest that it is unpatriotic to remain in the EU?

Because in the EU we have no ultimate control over our affairs. Have you forgotten how little Cameron managed to extract from the EU when he went over there cap in hand?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Because in the EU we have no ultimate control over our affairs. Have you forgotten how little Cameron managed to extract from the EU when he went over there cap in hand?

So the EU forced us to take the Euro? It forced us to go to war in Iraq, Syria and Libya? It forced us to build Hinckley Point? It forced us to introduce the bedroom tax? No.
Hopefully these examples will open your eyes to the fact that we do have control.

[Kursk]

A democratic vote was won by the leave campaign; arguing the toss is becoming increasingly moot.

CF is becoming more dysfunctional than the EU.

For the record, patriotic, unselfish British people voted to leave. Those who lack vision with no courage for making decisions voted to remain.

Whingers .

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

British. Both parents Latvian immigrants (displaced persons after WW2)

Do you think people in similar positions to your parents would still be allowed to come here in the coming years?

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Do you think people in similar positions to your parents would still be allowed to come here in the coming years?

Why ever not? They came here, worked hard and brought up a family that includes a successful and articulate son. Immigration won't be stopped; people who do want to come here will benefit from British way of life and Government.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Because in the EU we have no ultimate control over our affairs. Have you forgotten how little Cameron managed to extract from the EU when he went over there cap in hand?

It did indeed seem like very little. Then I spoke to a constitutional lawyer who explained to me in the context of the treaties just how much of a concession Cameron was given.

The idea we had no ultimate control over our affairs within the EU is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Ramrod

The reason that it hasn't existed for decades is because of the influence of the EU and it's left wing fellow travellers.

The EU is clearly a bit of a chimera given those on the left criticise it for being neo-conservative and corporatist.