[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by jackjone

It is the human rights element I continuously refer to, the ECHR often stand up for a migrant's human rights, but they do not seem to stand up for the human rights of British Citizens (disabled, sick etc. when their benefits are cut by our government and ultimately, some of these cases lead to death and suicide). Unfortunately, it is a double edged sword; I think I recall an article by a politician stating that the way to leave the ECHR is for the UK to withdraw from the EU and return to self governance or make a case to pull Britain out. Both go hand in hand. Hence the reason why we also need a decent government in power so it doesn't turn into a loss loss situation. On a positive note, if Britain left the (EU and) ECHR, they would also be able to deport criminals more easily and more quickly as they would not be bound over by the rules of the ECHR.

The good old days - when you could call the doctor and get an emergency appointment the same day and a standard one the day after. Hospitals had beds to meet the needs of our population. Schools weren't crowded. We could put up signs staying Merry Christmas. I could go on... They are my good old days, yours may differ.

I am not going to comment on this particular issue any more as it has now become tiring. Good luck with your vote.

Last time I checked benefits were not a human right.

I can still call my doctor and mostly get an appointment the same day or at least get one booked for a few days time.

Also since 'the good old days' the UK population has grown a lot and its nothing to do with migrants.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

This all seems pretty academic to be honest. After the events of Thursday and today IMHO there is no way we're going to be voting to leave, and I fully imagine policies around migration will change substantially.

While I abhor the event of Thursday I do hope you are wrong in that we won't vote leave.

We will find out next week.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I can still call my doctor and mostly get an appointment the same day or at least get one booked for a few days time.

Also since 'the good old days' the UK population has grown a lot and its nothing to do with migrants.

The doctor situation is a very local one. You may be able to do that, other areas cannot.

The UK population has grown a lot. The majority of the increase over the past decade and a half has been directly due to, or related closely to, migration.

Scotland's population growth over the past decade, despite being way faster than at any point in the past 50 years, has lagged the UK as a whole considerably.

[Osem]

Former defence chief Lord Guthrie has switched sides to the Leave campaign in the EU referendum, saying he is worried by the prospect of "a European army".

In February the ex-chief of the defence staff signed a Downing Street letter calling for the UK to stay in the EU.

But he has told the Telegraph that was "a mistake" and said he believed a vote to Leave "is better for defence".

The government has previously said Britain will "never be part of an EU army".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36565036

If we remain I wonder how long it'll be before that pledge is abandoned.

I've read some nonsense on both sides of this argument but that takes the biscuit.

---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 ----------

Originally Posted by Stephen

Last time I checked benefits were not a human right.

I can still call my doctor and mostly get an appointment the same day or at least get one booked for a few days time.

Also since 'the good old days' the UK population has grown a lot and its nothing to do with migrants.

I'm sorry but that really is utter tosh.

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.a...ulation-growth

More than half (53%) of the increase of the UK population between 1991 and 2014 was due to the direct contribution of net migration...

... Overall, between mid-1991 and mid-2014 net migration resulted in an addition of 3.8 million people to the UK population, accounting for just over half (53%) of total population growth.

Nothing to do with migrants?

That equates to more than half the of the entire population of Scotland and that was in 2014.

Originally Posted by pip08456

While I abhor the event of Thursday I do hope you are wrong in that we won't vote leave.

We will find out next week.

As awful and tragic as it is, I can't see why the murder of an MP would change anyone's mind on this debate, in either direction.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Last time I checked benefits were not a human right.

I can still call my doctor and mostly get an appointment the same day or at least get one booked for a few days time.

Also since 'the good old days' the UK population has grown a lot and its nothing to do with migrants.

In my lifetime (62 years to be exact) the population of the UK has grown by around 10 million.

[Osem]

... and, as if by magic:

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier has warned Nato against "warmongering", as it conducts military exercises in Eastern Europe.

Mr Steinmeier said that extensive Nato manoeuvres launched this month were counterproductive to regional security and could inflame tensions with Russia.

He urged the Nato military alliance to replace the exercises with more dialogue and co-operation with Russia.

Nato has carried out a 10-day exercise simulating a Russian attack on Poland.

The drill, which ended on Friday, involved about 31,000 troops, as well as fighter jets, ships and 3,000 vehicles.

Russia has been strengthening its military presence near its borders. In February it held a combat-readiness exercise involving 8,500 troops in a southern region near areas of eastern Ukraine held by pro-Russian rebels.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36566422

Maybe Germany would feel happier with an EU army over which it would have far more influence than it does within Nato?

[jackjone]

Originally Posted by Stephen

Last time I checked benefits were not a human right.

I can still call my doctor and mostly get an appointment the same day or at least get one booked for a few days time.

Also since 'the good old days' the UK population has grown a lot and its nothing to do with migrants.

I am sure many would disagree. If benefits were relied upon, would it not then be an infringement to take them away when the person had no other means to support themselves? Would you be happy for your parent, spouse or children to be placed in a situation where their basic needs were hardly met? We are talking about sick and vulnerable people here. There are human rights in law and there are human rights on a compassionate basis. We will just have to agree to disagree.

I am so pleased that you get a doctors appointment so quickly. You obviously don't live in an area where the NHS is overburdened. It isn't the case in many areas. Look at some of the large council areas where there has been a large influx of migrants over the years and where services have not been expanded to meet these needs. I have spoken with many who have personal experience of this so obviously some people find it problematic therefore this is an issue that needs to be addressed. We will agree to disagree on this issue too.

As to the good old days, it is a combination of both which has led to our current situation.

You might find the following post of interest. Being in the EU has resulted in a disastrous impact on our NHS services and costs.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-card-GP.html

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

In my lifetime (62 years to be exact) the population of the UK has grown by around 10 million.

The population has increased by ~5 million in the last 10 years.

None of it to do with either net migration or the considerably higher birthrates within some migrant communities.

Being honest benefits have nothing to do with the EU referendum and are a separate issue that already has many threads dedicated to it's discussion. Stephen you were asked by two of us about your commonwealth comment and you haven't answered I'll assume you recognise you got that one wrong. It is patently absurd to suggest that in the long-term our trade will be less then it is now the ability to make our own trade deals would increase substantially out of the EU and allow the uk to be far more dynamic to changing circumstances.

As for lord Guthrie reversing his viewpoint he wouldn't have done that if nothing had changed and he clearly knows something that is coming and it's enough to make him change his stance. Despite the continual promises from the government there is a great sense of unease about a European army within our military and little faith in the government to keep us out of it. People need to realise that the uk is not the only EU member with a growing anti EU sentiment I've lost count of the amount of French and German friends hoping we do vote out so they can try to obtain a vote for themselves and looking online it's a common sentiment, it isn't just the uk that has problems with the EU and the sentiment is growing.

[Osem]

The Eurocrats only listen to ordinary people when it's what they want to hear. The rest of the time they plough on regardless, assuring themselves that they always know best and sooner or later they'll get their way.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

The population has increased by ~5 million in the last 10 years.

None of it to do with either net migration or the considerably higher birthrates within some migrant communities.

I hope you didn't have a straight face when you wrote that

Net migration has increased the uk population by 240,000 per year since the 1990's

Net migration is the number of immigrants minus the number of emigrants. The growth of the UK population since the 1990s has been attributed primarily to the growth of net migration. The direct effect of net migration has increased the UK population by more than 240,000 people per year on average from 2004 to 2014; this is about 40,000 more people per year than natural change for the same period. Figure 2 shows the levels of emigration and immigration since the early 1990s.

overview of the uk population :feb 2016

---------- Post added at 15:31 ---------- Previous post was at 15:28 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

... and, as if by magic:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36566422

Maybe Germany would feel happier with an EU army over which it would have far more influence than it does within Nato?

Relax man ,we still in the EU so everything fine, no wars or nothing bad can happen ,leaving the EU is when the war starts

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

The population has increased by ~5 million in the last 10 years.

None of it to do with either net migration or the considerably higher birthrates within some migrant communities.

Don't know about that. Didn't see a lot of foreigners when I was a youngster now it appears to be the other way round.

[Osem]

I see whilst Westminster is too busy mourning one of its own the French have been handed the scaremongering baton in the form of Christine Lagarde and the economy minister Emmanuel Macron.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36561415

The IMF has had its third bite of the cherry in the EU Referendum campaign, finally providing the figures for the economic forecasts it has been promising.

IMF managing director Christine Lagarde has previously said that the possible outcomes from Brexit would range from pretty bad to very, very bad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36567469

Leaving the European Union would make the UK as significant as Guernsey, France's economy minister has said.

Emmanuel Macron told Le Monde newspaper that Britain would become "a little country on the world scale [that] would isolate itself... at Europe's border".

He said the EU should send "a very firm message" about the consequences of a British vote to leave the bloc.

The more they want us to scare us into staying the less I want to (if that's possible)...

Lol as significant as Guernsey the fifth largest economy in the world really and they expect us to take them seriously.

[denphone]

Polls predict a dead heat with voting less than a week away.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ampaign-jo-cox