[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Osem]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

As Chris asked when did the commonwealth cease to exist it seems to be doing relatively well and is a far bigger market then the EU and contains many more developing economies. This is the problem with the whole EU referendum debate half facts and exaggeration meaning neither side has made their case sufficiently enough for undecideds to make the informed choice they are looking for.

Come on now, you know the real agenda of anyone who wants out of the EU is to build a Trump style wall around the entire UK to cut off all nasty foreigners. Of course there'll be a gate through which we can throw out anyone who's 'foreign' before we finally brick it up.

Being out of the EU doesn't mean cutting ourselves off from anyone and will be a major incentive for our exporters to develop trade with the rest of the world free of the constraints of EU membership.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

As Chris asked when did the commonwealth cease to exist it seems to be doing relatively well and is a far bigger market then the EU and contains many more developing economies. This is the problem with the whole EU referendum debate half facts and exaggeration meaning neither side has made their case sufficiently enough for undecideds to make the informed choice they are looking for.

Don't start a discussion on the commonwealth as it goes against everything the EU stand for.

To begin with it's bigger.

The main difference though is it comprises 58 Free, Independant Sovereign Nations!

The commonwealth is what the EU should aspire to be.

Anyone interested can read more here.http://thecommonwealth.org/about-us

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jackjone

There is always going to be people who agree or disagree. Some people are so emotive about their subject and when they are, they obviously want the best for them! If someone feels strong enough to write such a post, then I will share it. There is propaganda all over the place yet I don't see many other posts being questioned, especially on other sites. Moderators should be objective.

Basically, the EU is a mess, Britain is a mess, the people who suffer from wrong decisions and cutbacks by the government are a mess. Seriously, what has happened to good old fashioned values. Bring back the good old days.There isn't really anything else I can say.

You seem to be mixing up the people affected by Government cutbacks with those you see as being impacted by being in the EU.

Can you clarify when the "good old days" were? Thanks ..

It's pretty unfair, the way the UK dropped its "commonwealth first" trade policy, hanging out to dry countries we are intimately related to, in order to join the European project. I wonder if all those New Zealand sheep farmers have ever quite forgiven us.

[pip08456]

Although we did drop "commonwealth first" trade policy that doesn't mean there is no longer a trading partner out there for us. You can still get NZ lamb now.

Strange how remain make no mention of the Commonwealth in relation to trade with those 58 nations especially in relation to the multicultural make up of this country now.

Then again we'll be shunned by the rest of the world if we leave the EU won't we.

[richard s]

We can trade with all the commonwealth countries without the EU restrictions imposed upon us.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by richard s

We can trade with all the commonwealth countries without the EU restrictions imposed upon us.

Apart from having to pay the EU for the "privilege". Part of the money we pay the EU is from having non-EU trade.

[techguyone]

It was unfair & bizarre, considering we formed it or were instrumental to start with.

The Commonwealth of Nations is a group of countries. Originally, it was called the British Commonwealth of Nations which was founded in 1926 when the British Empire began to break-up. Now, there are 54 member countries of the Commonwealth of Nations. All except Mozambique were part of the British Empire.

I'm fairly sure any trade we might lose from leaving the EU we can make up elsewhere and easier no longer being restrained by the EU. Both sides have performed pathetically during this campaign but what optimism there has been is on the leave side and this tired retort of remainers "closing ourselves off from the world" is being seen for what it is a cheap shot that isn't even applicable as the vast majority of leavers favour greater trade and involvement with the whole globe. If shutting ourselves off applies to any camp it's remain where they seem happy to be reliant on the EU for trade.

I think our biggest problem is our politicians have got lazy and like having the EU doing as much as they do letting domestic politicians off the hook as the EU has made a great scapegoat for our politicians over the years. Getting out of the EU is the first step to a chance of decent politicians.

[jackjone]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You seem to be mixing up the people affected by Government cutbacks with those you see as being impacted by being in the EU.

Can you clarify when the "good old days" were? Thanks ..

It is the human rights element I continuously refer to, the ECHR often stand up for a migrant's human rights, but they do not seem to stand up for the human rights of British Citizens (disabled, sick etc. when their benefits are cut by our government and ultimately, some of these cases lead to death and suicide). Unfortunately, it is a double edged sword; I think I recall an article by a politician stating that the way to leave the ECHR is for the UK to withdraw from the EU and return to self governance or make a case to pull Britain out. Both go hand in hand. Hence the reason why we also need a decent government in power so it doesn't turn into a loss loss situation. On a positive note, if Britain left the (EU and) ECHR, they would also be able to deport criminals more easily and more quickly as they would not be bound over by the rules of the ECHR.

The good old days - when you could call the doctor and get an emergency appointment the same day and a standard one the day after. Hospitals had beds to meet the needs of our population. Schools weren't crowded. We could put up signs staying Merry Christmas. I could go on... They are my good old days, yours may differ.

I am not going to comment on this particular issue any more as it has now become tiring. Good luck with your vote.

[pip08456]

The ECHR has no connection to the EU at all. We will still be bound to it even if we leave the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...f_Human_Rights

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

As Chris asked when did the commonwealth cease to exist it seems to be doing relatively well and is a far bigger market then the EU and contains many more developing economies. This is the problem with the whole EU referendum debate half facts and exaggeration meaning neither side has made their case sufficiently enough for undecideds to make the informed choice they are looking for.

Exactly. This is why we have to leave the EU and tap into that market.

---------- Post added at 07:20 ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

You seem to be mixing up the people affected by Government cutbacks with those you see as being impacted by being in the EU.

Can you clarify when the "good old days" were? Thanks ..

The good old days were in the 60s and first 2 years of the 70s when you could walk into a job. You could leave one job on a Friday and start another on the Monday especially in the building trade. I know this because I had family who worked in that trade. Getting a job in the building trade isn't that easy now. Walk on to any building site and play a game of Spot the Brit. Now I know we're just a poor wee country who couldn't survive without being tied to the apron strings of mother EU (NOT) but surely our own citizens can once again get these apprenticeships they had in the 60s? God's Holy Trousers, it's not rocket science. Anyone can see the advantages of leaving the EU even if the economy does take an initial hit. It will recover and be all the better for it in the end.

---------- Post added at 07:25 ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

It's pretty unfair, the way the UK dropped its "commonwealth first" trade policy, hanging out to dry countries we are intimately related to, in order to join the European project. I wonder if all those New Zealand sheep farmers have ever quite forgiven us.

I doubt they had a say in the matter. It was probably part of the conditions of joining the Common Market. In fact, I'd say it was. You can only trade with the single market from now on. What a big mistake it was joining the Common Market and at least I can say "We told you so."

---------- Post added at 07:29 ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I'm fairly sure any trade we might lose from leaving the EU we can make up elsewhere and easier no longer being restrained by the EU. Both sides have performed pathetically during this campaign but what optimism there has been is on the leave side and this tired retort of remainers "closing ourselves off from the world" is being seen for what it is a cheap shot that isn't even applicable as the vast majority of leavers favour greater trade and involvement with the whole globe. If shutting ourselves off applies to any camp it's remain where they seem happy to be reliant on the EU for trade.

I think our biggest problem is our politicians have got lazy and like having the EU doing as much as they do letting domestic politicians off the hook as the EU has made a great scapegoat for our politicians over the years. Getting out of the EU is the first step to a chance of decent politicians.

This is exactly what Leave should be ramming home in the last few days. I'm pretty sure the Commonwealth and others will be only too wiling to trade with us. After all, wouldn't it be in their best interests to do so?

Originally Posted by jackjone

It is the human rights element I continuously refer to, the ECHR often stand up for a migrant's human rights, but they do not seem to stand up for the human rights of British Citizens (disabled, sick etc. when their benefits are cut by our government and ultimately, some of these cases lead to death and suicide). Unfortunately, it is a double edged sword; I think I recall an article by a politician stating that the way to leave the ECHR is for the UK to withdraw from the EU and return to self governance or make a case to pull Britain out. Both go hand in hand. Hence the reason why we also need a decent government in power so it doesn't turn into a loss loss situation. On a positive note, if Britain left the (EU and) ECHR, they would also be able to deport criminals more easily and more quickly as they would not be bound over by the rules of the ECHR.

.

Receiving benefits is not a human right and the ECHR is completely separate from the EU .Our government is however committed to repealing the Human Rights Act and replacing it with the British Bill of Rights but that is a different debate

Jason Manford posted something on FB which I totally agree with...

Right I need to go to sleep! Been reading and replying to your Referendum comments for over an hour! There are still so many undecided people and that is the fault of both of the ineffectual campaigns.
Best of luck finding what you think is the right way to go, read what you can, even in publications you don't usually agree with. Try and read what people are saying even if you hate everything they stand for. Chat to your friends and family and even your children-at the end of the day, it's a decision that affects them the most.

Most importantly though, just be kind. Just because someone is voting Leave it doesn't make them an uneducated racist. And just because someone is voting Remain doesn't mean they're naive sheep! Be thankful that we live in a country where we are allowed to vote at all and be proud of our ancestors who got us this far.

The truth is, nobody knows anything! It's largely guess work and even the people who appear the most knowledgeable, those leaders who've let us down so badly, those who are using it for political gain and point scoring really don't know either. Nobody knows the future. The most important thing is, that you vote, for something, either way. That way you can look the next generation in the eye and say 'well, At least did something. I read what I could, I tried my best to understand it, I went with a gut feeling and I did it for you, for your future'.

Best of luck to you all,

Gnight,

Jason

[Ignitionnet]

This all seems pretty academic to be honest. After the events of Thursday and today IMHO there is no way we're going to be voting to leave, and I fully imagine policies around migration will change substantially.