[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[figgyburn]

Of course germany and france do not want us to leave.We along with them are the biggest donors of money to the eu.Leave and the residents of germany and france will have to make up our donation shortfall if they want to continue the same level of bribes to the former communist countries to get their continued agreement to support the european dream.The rich north subsidises the poor south and the poor eastern countries and will continue to do so ad infinitum.Are you happy to continue to pay for them with your tax contributions?.The choice is yours to make come june 23.Me i'm voting leave as we can control our own destiny.I cannot believe the timidity and fearfull outlook from some people if we leave.Time for the old bulldog spirit to rise again and put the great back into britain.

[Taf]

EU citizens from non-UK countries are not entitled to vote, unless they are citizens of the Irish Republic, Cyprus or Malta.

I do hope they mean south Cyprus and not the Turkish occupied north. Malta was full of dual-nationality Libyans last time I was there. And Irish Republicans who get their own EU votes (again and again until they give the right answer).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36446521

[richard s]

Really!!!!

I do not want to be living in a Federal State for one thing although Dave and his cronies have sought to get special dispensation for us or is it for the bankers appeasement. What if more countries get in to financial troubles who do you think the EU mob will ask for more money from to prop up them up.

More migrants will want to come here thats for sure, just recently we had 19 Albanians turn up on a sinking boat at Dymnchurch, Kent. The saying goes All for One, One for All comes to mind.

LGTFO (lets get the **** out).

[Ramrod]

Gove handled the Sky debate very well tonight. Much better that Cameron last night.

The credibility of international economic organisation's was a joke before this referendum but now we are constantly being told to listen to them, nothing like this has happened before nobody knows a damn thing for sure and the deluge of horror stories should we vote to leave is dishonest campaigning. There have been favourable economic reports done by all the bodies who have released all these disaster scenarios why are they not published and the public given a complete overview of all opinions we are being manipulated in an unacceptable way and the public needs to send a clear message that what has happened is not who we are, what we are and will never be.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

The credibility of international economic organisation's was a joke before this referendum but now we are constantly being told to listen to them, nothing like this has happened before nobody knows a damn thing for sure and the deluge of horror stories should we vote to leave is dishonest campaigning. There have been favourable economic reports done by all the bodies who have released all these disaster scenarios why are they not published and the public given a complete overview of all opinions we are being manipulated in an unacceptable way and the public needs to send a clear message that what has happened is not who we are, what we are and will never be.

Where do you hear they've done favourable economic reports that aren't being released?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by figgyburn

Of course germany and france do not want us to leave.We along with them are the biggest donors of money to the eu.Leave and the residents of germany and france will have to make up our donation shortfall if they want to continue the same level of bribes to the former communist countries to get their continued agreement to support the european dream.The rich north subsidises the poor south and the poor eastern countries and will continue to do so ad infinitum.Are you happy to continue to pay for them with your tax contributions?.The choice is yours to make come june 23.Me i'm voting leave as we can control our own destiny.I cannot believe the timidity and fearfull outlook from some people if we leave.Time for the old bulldog spirit to rise again and put the great back into britain.

Don't you still have to pay the dues to get access to the single market, iirc norway pay 80% of what a full member in their position would

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Gove handled the Sky debate very well tonight. Much better that Cameron last night.

I think they both did pretty well. Gove surprised me, he did better than i thought whereas Cameron has become very experienced and slick at this kind of thing. Gove managed to appear considered and didn't make any real mistakes.

Cameron did fine last night as evidenced today where, outside of the Tory press, his performance was largely incident free. I think the same will go today. Gove didn't get hit, the Remain papers will focus on his answers to the economic question but they would, and he didn't score a clear winner.

I don't think these two debates will have much of an impact really but Gove will have gone up in a lot of people's estimations.

[Osem]

Gove did very well IMHO.

---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

This is assuming no drop in the economy though. £10bn would be wiped out with a slight drop in growth (from where we otherwise be).

... and that drop in growth or worse could just as easily caused by being shackled to the EU.

Originally Posted by Osem

... and that drop in growth or worse could just as easily caused by being shackled to the EU.

It could be but at the moment there is a large body of economic opinion the Leaving would cost us. Although this is a debate we've had before.

Originally Posted by Taf

I do hope they mean south Cyprus and not the Turkish occupied north. Malta was full of dual-nationality Libyans last time I was there. And Irish Republicans who get their own EU votes (again and again until they give the right answer).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36446521

There are lots of Brits living in the TRNC, but it is not a recognised state (except by Turkey), so it is unlikely they will be eligible.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

It could be but at the moment there is a large body of economic opinion the Leaving would cost us. Although this is a debate we've had before.

The same large body of economic opinion that failed to see the 2008 crisis coming you mean? That thought joining the Euro was a great idea? The same economic opinion which failed to predict mass migration on an unprecedented level? Let's forget what if's and look at right now eh? It doesn't take a large body of opinion to know how badly the EU is doing right now and that no solution to the many serious problems it faces has yet to be found. Now that's real uncertainty for you and getting as far away from it as possible before it's too late ought to be a priority I'd have thought but I'll grant you roaming charges may go up as a result...

Originally Posted by Osem

The same large body of economic opinion that failed to see the 2008 crisis coming you mean? That thought joining the Euro was a great idea? Let's forget what if's and look at right now eh? It doesn't take a large body of opinion to know how badly the EU is doing right now and that no solution to the many serious problems it faces has yet been found. Now that's real uncertainty for you.

I don't think the economists are infallible but if they're all saying one thing and the other side's rebuttal is simply that they're wrong then I give more credibility to the former. Many of these organisations are neutral and spent a lot of time studying these things, the nature of economics means they don't have 100% success rate but I value expertise and study, even if it can be wrong, over blind assertion. As I have mentioned before economically literate papers such as The Economist and the FT also believe these warnings to be credible in their coverage.

This is just a re-run of the Scottish Referendum. A lot of organisations saying it was bad for both economies, that it would give a big economic hit and would harm living standards. They weren't dismissed so readily then (although ironically they are now embraced by the same people who saw them as establishment stooges then, a.k.a the SNP).

---------- Post added at 22:47 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

but I'll grant you roaming charges may go up as a result...

I know that isn't an entirely serious line but I was in three different European countries over the last couple of months and got a pretty expense phone bill as a result. No more roaming charges would be very welcome.

Damien it is normal when drawing up economic forecasts to cover the whole range of possibilities not just the worst case scenario which is all remain have put to the public and I've met enough people lately in positions to know that the government is withholding those reports which do not further it's agenda. Just to be clear our government is lying to the British people and deliberately withholding information that the public should have access too in order for them to make an informed choice, I have never been as embarassed and ashamed of my government as I am right now.

By the time it all comes out it will be too late and that's exactly what the government wants if I was to see David Cameron in the street tomorrow I'd spit on his feet a truly unworthy prime minister.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

Cameron did fine last night as evidenced today where, outside of the Tory press, his performance was largely incident free.

I disagree. Cameron was the sterotypical rabbit in the headlights. All he kept saying was that europe has 500 million people and we can continue to trade with them whereas Gove had a decent answer for all of the questions.

I don't think these two debates will have much of an impact really but Gove will have gone up in a lot of people's estimations.

So Gove made more of an impact than Cameron?
Admit it. Gove was far better than Cameron, but it's hardly surprising since Cameron is lying and Gove was speaking from the heart. Look at their faces in each debate, Camerons eyes betrayed him. Gove was relaxed apart from when he was asked about the second homes in France

---------- Post added at 23:49 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

It could be but at the moment there is a large body of economic opinion the Leaving would cost us. Although this is a debate we've had before.

Economists are so good at predicting the future

---------- Post added at 23:50 ---------- Previous post was at 23:49 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

but I'll grant you roaming charges may go up as a result...

Yep. Best vote in and throw away our democracy

---------- Post added at 23:54 ---------- Previous post was at 23:50 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think the economists are infallible but if they're all saying one thing and the other side's rebuttal is simply that they're wrong then I give more credibility to the former.

Interesting that those economists aren't pontificating on the worst case scenario regarding what could happen if we stay in.....it's almost like they are biased