[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I want everyone to have ALL the facts..then it's truly a democratic decision made by the informed..Oh and I don't like the nation being lied to by BOTH sides.

Well, sadly, I think you can forget all that so it's either vote according to your conscience based on what you 'know' or don't bother.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Hugh

When in doubt, smear?

I call it as I see it [/QUOTE]

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I want everyone to have ALL the facts..then it's truly a democratic decision made by the informed..Oh and I don't like the nation being lied to by BOTH sides.

I'm afraid you are never going to get that. However, use your judgement and think to yourself 'COULD' whatever both sides say happen and weigh up the pros and cons. All they do is give you the worse case scenarios. What happens could be the total opposite. I mean I thought of this.

The EU won't slap tariffs on us as they want our trade.
The EU won't slap prices on holidays as they want our tourism.
How can being in or out of the EU effect house prices?
We'll get our fishing waters back thus creating jobs and cheaper fish.
The NHS won't be drained. Those living and working here will be entitled to stay.
Last week we were told leaving would cause a technical recession by remain. This week they tell us it will be a full blown recession.
People living in the EU won't be booted out or have to sell up to come home. The EU need them.

There's loads more your common sense should tell you. No they not facts, just logic.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

I want everyone to have ALL the facts..then it's truly a democratic decision made by the informed..Oh and I don't like the nation being lied to by BOTH sides.

You have lived through the years that have seen the metamorphosis of the EEC into the EU. You have witnessed the change to your way of life and you can make a reasoned judgement on the prospects for the future.

Whatever you decide, I can't see how you can be any better informed in your decision than you are now. You enjoy the added benefit of experience.

People who decide on the toss of a coin do disservice to democracy (I'm not saying this is you; it is a separate comment on the waverers who ought to be able to make up their minds by now IMHO).

It is perfectly reasonable and right that people should have facts to help them make a choice and if we had a decent political class whose main goal was serving the interests of the people and nation we might have had those facts. What we have ended up with partly because of us the public is a bunch of selfish individuals many bought and paid for chasing their agendas as told to them by their paymasters or just doing what benefits them personally with no care or concern for either the people or the nation.

The UK is a fine nation with predominately fine people but our elected representatives are of the lowest calibre that I can remember and they have turned this referendum into an embarrassing farce that will do nothing but damage to the UK. I didn't vote in the 70's as I wasn't old enough but my vote is decided not so much on the past although that has been a factor but on what I believe will happen in the future given the course the EU is on. I'm voting with my kids future in mind as they will be the one's that suffer and pay in future and I'll likely be a pile of ash in 10 years so that's my reasoning.

Whatever the vote we the public must not make the mistake of the past and forget the conduct of our politicians we need a new group of politicians and get rid of the current lot as they have demonstrated they are incapable of doing what needs to be done. Whether we are in or out of the EU we need strength in our representatives to get what's best we clearly don't have that at the minute.

[Big Brian]

More Reality checks:

The claim: Leaving the European Union would create a year-long recession.

Reality Check verdict: The Treasury analysis gives two scenarios, described as "shock" and "severe shock". Both point to a recession in the short term, but in the case of the lesser "shock" scenario, while there would be an impact on the economy, the predicted recession would be very mild and well within the bounds of forecasting uncertainty.

The claim: Iain Duncan Smith says that more than three quarters of the rise in employment in the last year has come from people born abroad.

Reality Check verdict: The latest figures support this. You could also look at the number of non-UK nationals (rather than everyone born abroad, which includes British citizens). They account for 56% of the rise.

The claim: Membership of the European Union guarantees rights on equal pay, sexual harassment and maternity leave, and rights for part-time workers. Those rights would be in jeopardy if Britain voted to leave.

Reality Check Verdict: The EU has been influential in the development of equality legislation but leaving would not necessarily mean those rights would be lost.

Claim: The European Union is so corrupt that the European Court of Auditors has not signed off its accounts for 20 years.

Reality Check verdict: The Court of Auditors has signed the EU accounts every year since 2007, while pointing out that EU countries, once they receive the EU funds, misuse about 4.4% of the total budget.

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 15:01 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

It is perfectly reasonable and right that people should have facts to help them make a choice and if we had a decent political class whose main goal was serving the interests of the people and nation we might have had those facts. What we have ended up with partly because of us the public is a bunch of selfish individuals many bought and paid for chasing their agendas as told to them by their paymasters or just doing what benefits them personally with no care or concern for either the people or the nation.

The UK is a fine nation with predominately fine people but our elected representatives are of the lowest calibre that I can remember and they have turned this referendum into an embarrassing farce that will do nothing but damage to the UK. I didn't vote in the 70's as I wasn't old enough but my vote is decided not so much on the past although that has been a factor but on what I believe will happen in the future given the course the EU is on. I'm voting with my kids future in mind as they will be the one's that suffer and pay in future and I'll likely be a pile of ash in 10 years so that's my reasoning.

Whatever the vote we the public must not make the mistake of the past and forget the conduct of our politicians we need a new group of politicians and get rid of the current lot as they have demonstrated they are incapable of doing what needs to be done. Whether we are in or out of the EU we need strength in our representatives to get what's best we clearly don't have that at the minute.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/eu_referendum

Originally Posted by pip08456

I was not arguing with you just pointing something out for others to digest.

pip, apologies if you thought I was referring to you.

[papa smurf]

Shame of Prime Minister and Chancellor who think Britain incapable of standing on its own

Dodgy Dave and Armagideon have lost their street cred

DAVID Cameron and George Osborne have been ridiculed for “straightforwardly ludicrous” claims Britain couldn’t stand on its own two feet if it left the EU.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-own-EU-Brexit

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Remain talk about having a voice if we stay but the truth is the voice will get smaller the more the EU integrates.

You bring logic to the discussion, so let me answer this particular point logically. It's logical that if the voice we have in the EU (assuming we remain) gets smaller the more the EU integrates, then it will be smaller still if we leave.

In the meantime , we will be competing internationally with an organisation consisting of many more people than live in our country, and counts countries with some of the largest economies in the the world as members. Do you, or any other member promoting leaving the EU seriously contend we can compete with that?

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Stuart

Do you, or any other member promoting leaving the EU seriously contend we can compete with that?

David and Goliath. Have faith .

[Osem]

I seem to recall Cameron saying, before his 'tough renegotiations', that of course the UK could survive and be strong outside the EU and he'd rule nothing out if he didn't get his way. Given all the dire warnings they've since issued about life (or death even, via WWIII) outside the EU and the minimal concessions he managed to get, it rather gives the impression that they were committed to staying in no matter what the outcome of those talks was. Their scaremongering has been such that you have to ask what the EU could have done (or refused to do) which could possibly have forced him decide that the plethora of terrible risks associated with leaving were acceptable because the alternative (i.e. staying in) was worse. It was never going to happen was it and all that stuff about tough negotiations to get what was best for the UK was wholly disingenuous.

If one argument is that it's vital for European security that we stay in, why would the EU not have every incentive to ensure that, if we did leave, whatever (if any) new measures and agreements were required were urgently put in place to avoid any undue damage to security. Are they really saying that's impossible, that they'd suddenly stop sharing information etc? Why would something so vital that they reckon is in everyone's interests be sacrificed unless it's a case of punishing the UK and, by their own admission, themselves in the process.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Osem

I seem to recall Cameron saying, before his 'tough renegotiations', that of course the UK could survive and be strong outside the EU and he'd rule nothing out if he didn't get his way. Given all the dire warnings they've since issued about life (or death even, via WWIII) outside the EU and the minimal concessions he managed to get, it rather gives the impression that they were committed to staying in no matter what the outcome of those talks was. Their scaremongering has been such that you have to ask what the EU could have done (or refused to do) which could possibly have forced him decide that the plethora of terrible risks associated with leaving were acceptable because the alternative (i.e. staying in) was worse. It was never going to happen was it and all that stuff about tough negotiations to get what was best for the UK was wholly disingenuous.

If one argument is that it's vital for European security that we stay in, why would the EU not have every incentive to ensure that, if we did leave, whatever (if any) new measures and agreements were required were urgently put in place to avoid any undue damage to security. Are they really saying that's impossible, that they'd suddenly stop sharing information etc? Why would something so vital that they reckon is in everyone's interests be sacrificed unless it's a case of punishing the UK and, by their own admission, themselves in the process.

it seems he did say we could survive and thrive until his u turn
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/673...u-turn-footage

Stuart there will be a period of time where trade may be impacted it's by no means a certainty at this point and the strength of the EU that you highlight is also it's weakness as despite multiple economies they all have to sing from the same sheet severely restraining some. Being out means the UK would be able to be much more dynamic in it's approach to trade and foreign investment as well as tailor things to the requirements of various markets as needed which is everything the EU isn't.

There is no rosy scenario here whether we leave or stay short term but in the medium to longer term leaving puts the uk in a better position. Add to that if we leave I don't think there will be an EU within 10 years the UK may well be the first domino in the collapse of the EU, already France is starting to ask for a similar referendum and Germans are not happy either. Our biggest problem is in or out of the EU the UK needs a strength in politician we clearly don't have to obtain the best for the UK and if we vote out I can see Cameron being quite petty and not even trying to get the best for us.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Hugh

pip, apologies if you thought I was referring to you.

No worries Hugh.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Stuart

You bring logic to the discussion, so let me answer this particular point logically. It's logical that if the voice we have in the EU (assuming we remain) gets smaller the more the EU integrates, then it will be smaller still if we leave.

In the meantime , we will be competing internationally with an organisation consisting of many more people than live in our country, and counts countries with some of the largest economies in the the world as members. Do you, or any other member promoting leaving the EU seriously contend we can compete with that?

Perhaps I should have said smaller within the EU?