[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

It gets more stupid every day. BSE are getting desperate.

Anyhow I would have thought the NHS was in much greater danger with EU meddling from Brussels and the desire for uniformity of goods and services across the whole EU than being run, regulated and financed by our own government.

I really fear for the NSH if we remain in the EU. They have overspent to the tune of over £2.5 billion this year. This, they say is due mainly to hiring Agency Staff. However, the main reason is immigration. Even if it's 3 million by 2030 the NHS will be put under severe strain, more than it is now. Let's get out of the EU and train our own to do these jobs in the NHS be they foreigners living here after we leave or home grown Brits. Surely, with the money we'll save we will be able to train people in our own country?

IMHO I think the Immigration/NHS issues should be more than enough to swing a leave vote.

---------- Post added at 16:57 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Boris Johnson is a very astute individual and far from the buffoon he gives the image of at times which makes me curious what he is up to because his latest speech was bad but he's just another of the current crop of politicians not fit for purpose. I don't think things have ever been as bad politically as they are right now the whole class is an utter shambles and disgrace to the UK. This referendum is about a single and simple issue (in terms of the question) of do we stay or leave the EU but has been turned into a farce by both sides and all it's accomplished is to muddy the waters for those who wanted information to help them make a choice.

Thankfully my vote was decided sometime ago which is just as well because neither camp has given me reason to choose them although remain getting every tom, dick and harry involved with scare tactics and threats would have pushed me to the leave side more because I'm stubborn and don't like bullies or threats and instinctively go the opposite way.

Is your vote decided on issues regarding the EU or is it that you are just Pro or Anti EU? I've always been against being part of Europe and I still have my reasons from 1975 to back me up as well as more recent things like:

The NHS:

I believe we should be training people from this country to do the jobs in the NHS.

Jobs:

If we kerb immigration and don't have all these people coming in from the EU then surely it stands to reason that there will be more jobs for those already living in Britain? I don't know the exact figures of overseas or EU Citizens brought in to work here because we don't have the skills but surely we can train our own Citizens to do these jobs? Whatever these figures are they relate to that many jobs for those already living here.

The Economy:

The initial money we save from not being in the EU will set us up to be able to begin training our own people as well as shoring up the NHS. Of course, I realise that this money we save initially will dwindle as trade agreements with EU countries are formed and when Leave say we'll save X amount of money being out of the EU they mean initially, not every week, month or year. It's a fantastic amount of money and could put Britain back on our feet. If Firms leave it's no great loss. Other jobs will be created with new trade agreements with the EU and other countries we'll be free to trade with thus encouraging new and more Firms into the UK.

Sovereignty:

Leaving the EU will free us up to have our own laws instead of them being forced on us by Brussels. I don't say they are all bad but we would be able to alter them to suit the needs of the UK, not the EU.

Our Parliament will be making the laws that Govern the country and not the EU.

We would not need to be worried about breaking EU law in most cases. The Grocer who was taken to court for displaying fruit and veg in imperial instead of metric weights for example would never have happened and would not happen again. This is what we, the Leave Camp mean by stupid laws. That chap is now deceased and was from my area but he should never have been taken to court over that.

Our Parliament would make the laws on immigration and not the EU. We would have the say who can and can't enter Britain.

Oh there is lots more.

Originally Posted by Damien

Do many of you not see the irony in decrying project fear whilst saying the NHS is doomed if we stay in the EU? The thing is both sides are doing it because it works. And again all these fears on the NHS and of project fear where not evident 12 months ago for the General Election from the Tories.[COLOR="Silver"]

The NHS is getting totally swamped with the extra work load because of the EU's open border policy and ,correct me if i'm wrong , i don't see the EU jumping to help fund it ,once out we can restrict the numbers entering and relying on our NHS .That is common sense not scaremongering Damien.
Incidentally the same applies to our education system as well

Originally Posted by martyh

The NHS is getting totally swamped with the extra work load because of the EU's open border policy and ,correct me if i'm wrong , i don't see the EU jumping to help fund it ,once out we can restrict the numbers entering and relying on our NHS .That is common sense not scaremongering Damien.
Incidentally the same applies to our education system as well

I deleted my post because I couldn't really be bothered but none the less.

Now obviously more people creates more demand for public services and there may well be problems in specific areas of the country, we haven't a good enough job at things like that.

However there isn't much evidence that the wider NHS is getting swamped by EU migration. It may be 'common sense' but there are other factors to consider such as immigration trending younger than the general population and young people are rarely being a cost issue for the NHS. What's more these people contribute as well and if they go back before hitting old age then they're a net benefit. The NHS is swamped with elderly care, obesity and diabetes.

Here is a good article on it: https://fullfact.org/immigration/imp...blic-services/

In short it's very debatable, with pros/cons. It's not as obvious as common sense suggests that immigration is bringing down the NHS.

---------- Post added at 19:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:51 ----------

On another note. Ryanair are trying to wind up Leave campaigners: http://www.cityam.com/241549/eu-refe...-by-vote-leave

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Damien

In short it's very debatable, with pros/cons. It's not as obvious as common sense suggests that immigration is bringing down the NHS.
Here is a good article on it: https://fullfact.org/immigration/imp...blic-services/

It is not possible to say with certainty what the implications of migration are for the cost, availability and quality of public services, and these impacts are likely to vary by area and depending on the type of public service.

So Brian could be correct in his assertion. Let's face it, when it comes to immigration in this country and what the 'common man' says about it, first he is called a racist for saying it, then he is ignored, then what he has been saying becomes accepted as a self evident truth.
I therefore expect that in a decade or so, the government will release a report showing that immigration did indeed impact negatively on the NHS.

Hell, we already have local authorities begging for more money to fund the schooling of all the extra non English speaking kids that they've been lumbered with.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

So Brian could be correct in his assertion. Let's face it, when it comes to immigration in this country and what the 'common man' says about it, first he is called a racist for saying it, then he is ignored, then what he has been saying becomes accepted as a self evident truth.
I therefore expect that in a decade or so, the government will release a report showing that immigration did indeed impact negatively on the NHS.

Hell, we already have local authorities begging for more money to fund the schooling of all the extra non English speaking kids that they've been lumbered with.

Which is fine. I am not disputing that immigration, especially large immigration into one area, can impact on local services. I am saying though that when you take the NHS as a whole there isn't a whole lot of evidence the organisation is being hurt by immigration and it might even be a good thing. Even aforementioned local effect is disputed.

Arguing these things on 'common sense' can be a mistake because we need to be able to quantify these things and not go on assumptions. Whilst it seems self-evident that an increasing population puts a strain on the NHS it doesn't have to be the case. It assumes that everyone uses the NHS equally which we don't and it ignores contributions from those immigrants as well as the fact it's staffed by many immigrants too.

What would be interesting is the figures on how many EU migrants retire here or how many go back. I believe in London the time for EU migrants tends to be fleeting, a period of their young adulthood, before they return. I can't find numbers on that though so it's speculation.

Also plenty of what 'the common man' says now will equally turn out to be rubbish too. Too often that term is used to throw out baseless assertions whilst trying to insulate the speaker from criticism back.

Originally Posted by Damien

Which is fine. I am not disputing that immigration, especially large immigration into one area, can impact on local services. I am saying though that when you take the NHS as a whole there isn't a whole lot of evidence the organisation is being hurt by immigration and it might even be a good thing. Even aforementioned local effect is disputed.

Arguing these things on 'common sense' can be a mistake because we need to be able to quantify these things and not go on assumptions. Whilst it seems self-evident that an increasing population puts a strain on the NHS it doesn't have to be the case. It assumes that everyone uses the NHS equally which we don't and it ignores contributions from those immigrants as well as the fact it's staffed by many immigrants too.

What would be interesting is the figures on how many EU migrants retire here or how many go back. I believe in London the time for EU migrants tends to be fleeting, a period of their young adulthood, before they return. I can't find numbers on that though so it's speculation.

Also plenty of what 'the common man' says now will equally turn out to be rubbish too. Too often that term is used to throw out baseless assertions whilst trying to insulate the speaker from criticism back.

It's the 'common man' that will be voting and it's the common man that can't get an appointment at his GP surgery because ,as he sees it ,immigrants are choking up the areas resources .Whether that's true or not is of no consequence ,the common man will vote on what he sees

Ryan air carrying on the remain tradition of cheap shots I'm really fed up with all of this and wish I could go to sleep and wake up on the 23rd of June because this is all getting really pathetic and how we must look internationally right now I dread to think. Both sides have small people chasing their agenda and despite rhetoric on both sides are doing tremendous damage to the UK. I'm tired of this shower insulting the intelligence of us all and trying to mushroom us all and then expecting us to support them.

Watching things degenerate for the last three decades has decided my vote Brian and if I wasn't already decided I'd be struggling as many must be at the complete lack of substance put forward by both sides in this referendum. Given both groups had the time to organise their campaigns the fact it's ended up like this speaks volumes for the quality of our politicians. If there is a single thing that totally galvanised my vote it was Ukraine and the way that the EU got involved trying to get them into the club created huge tension with Russia and now has basically left Ukraine to it with token measures.

That one incident shows the damage the EU is capable of and the continuing eastward expansion has been paused not abandoned and when they start it up again I'm not sure how Russia will react but I'm not hopeful on a good outcome. This tunneled vision pursuit of a European super state is the threat to peace and security not whether we leave or stay in an increasingly desperate dream.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by martyh

It's the 'common man' that will be voting and it's the common man that can't get an appointment at his GP surgery because ,as he sees it ,immigrants are choking up the areas resources .Whether that's true or not is of no consequence ,the common man will vote on what he sees

Now you've hit the nail on the head. Go into a surgery or hospital in the North East of England for example and you could be the only, at the risk of sounding racist, 'white person' there. That's not so bad where I live now but in my last area I used to sit waiting to see the doctor and play "spot the Brit."

Of course, this next point has nothing to do with immigration or the EU but on the subject of the NHS: The problem as I see it is that because surgeries are shared or merged it is hard to get an appointment in your area. Why should you have to travel several miles to another part of the practice to get a quicker appointment when you want one? My problem here is my disabled scooter won't take the journey there and back if I can't get the appointment when I want in my area. I can't get the bus, because I can't walk more than 10 feet when I get off. Taxis are expensive. This is just one example.

[Osem]

Another breakfast of fear served up by HMG. This time it's the Chancellor and house prices which will plummet if we dare to leave the EU. Yes our houses will drop and interest rates will increase, but there was I thinking this might not be an entirely bad thing. They keep tinkering around the edges trying to make housing more affordable and promising to more but the one thing which they say would really do that, evidently, they're dead set against.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36344425

My God how did we ever survive outside of the Euro-club?

[papa smurf]

Chicken Dave running scared: Prime Minister REFUSES to take part in head-to-head EU debates

chicken Dave yesterday struggled to bat away claims he had become scared of Ukip leader and Brexit campaigners Nigel Farage.

The Tory leader instead confirmed he would instead face off against members of the public in 'town hall' style televised discussions.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672...d-blue-on-blue

[heero_yuy]

Sounds like Gideon has shot himself in the foot. A drop in house prices will appeal to young first time buyers, just the demographic that currently support continued EU membership. They could see a Brexit vote as a positive thing now.

Both are using scare tactics..are we children to be scared of the monsters under the EU bed?

Originally Posted by Osem

Another breakfast of fear served up by HMG. This time it's the Chancellor and house prices which will plummet if we dare to leave the EU. Yes our houses will drop and interest rates will increase, but there was I thinking this might not be an entirely bad thing. They keep tinkering around the edges trying to make housing more affordable and promising to more but the one thing which they say would really do that, evidently, they're dead set against.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36344425

My God how did we ever survive outside of the Euro-club?

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Sounds like Gideon has shot himself in the foot. A drop in house prices will appeal to young first time buyers, just the demographic that currently support continued EU membership. They could see a Brexit vote as a positive thing now.

It's just another day though dominated by a bad story about leaving the EU though and less room for a bad story about staying the EU. I am guessing they're deploying a deliberate strategy here...

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Both are using scare tactics..are we children to be scared of the monsters under the EU bed?

yes if its trying to get the money out of the mattress

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

It's just another day though dominated by a bad story about leaving the EU though and less room for a bad story about staying the EU. I am guessing they're deploying a deliberate strategy here...

Get the bad news in before those pesky folks who believe in the UK's sovereignty get up eh?

Having made up my mind it's irrelevant, but if I were on the fence I'd be tempted to vote out just to stuff it to these damned people.