[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Boris Johnson is a very astute individual and far from the buffoon he gives the image of at times which makes me curious what he is up to because his latest speech was bad but he's just another of the current crop of politicians not fit for purpose. I don't think things have ever been as bad politically as they are right now the whole class is an utter shambles and disgrace to the UK. This referendum is about a single and simple issue (in terms of the question) of do we stay or leave the EU but has been turned into a farce by both sides and all it's accomplished is to muddy the waters for those who wanted information to help them make a choice.

Thankfully my vote was decided sometime ago which is just as well because neither camp has given me reason to choose them although remain getting every tom, dick and harry involved with scare tactics and threats would have pushed me to the leave side more because I'm stubborn and don't like bullies or threats and instinctively go the opposite way.

[Osem]

I recall having an argument with Nigel De Gruchy a few years ago. He was banging on about what a clown Boris was/is and until I reminded him that 'Boris the clown' had comfortably defeated his preferred choice (Red Ken). Not bad for a clown eh?

Let's be honest, although some are far worse than others, none of our current crop of politicians are beyond reproach or criticism. As usual the public's choice boils down to the least worst option and that's the choice we're faced with at the forthcoming referendum. Getting out is the least worst option.

[Ramrod]

BBC 1 8pm tonight showed this: Jeremy Paxman on the EU

Jeremy Paxman takes an impartial look at the fundamentals of what actually goes on between the UK and the EU, in this one-hour documentary.

He travels to Brussels and walks the corridors of power in the EU's headquarters, to discover how decisions that affect half a billion people - including all of us - are made.

Paxman meets both officials and politicians from elsewhere in the EU to discover what makes Brussels tick. In interviews and lively encounters, he hears the full spectrum of opinion on whether the UK should remain within the union or leave. Back in Britain, he explores how our relationship with the European Union and its predecessors has shaped Westminster politics for decades. He reveals unexpected stories, and talks to key figures of many political stripes and differing convictions on the EU.

Paxman explains the process by which laws made in the EU pass onto our statute books. And he examines why the concept of 'sovereignty' has long played a part in our national debate about Brussels. The programme reveals just how the decisions made in Brussels are now part of all our lives, and asks how our relationship with Europe might change - whatever the referendum outcome.

[Osem]

Now what was all that about the UK's veto?

Senior Tories campaigning to keep Britain in the EU are hopeful that the referendum is swinging their way. They believe that opinion polls in recent days, which have given the Remain side a noticeable lead, show that a series of warnings about the impact of a British exit from Barack Obama, the IMF and the Bank of England are hitting home.

But the Leave side insists there is all to play for in the last five weeks of the campaign. One of their leading lights, former Conservative Defence Secretary Liam Fox, is highlighting what he regards as a powerful weapon for the Leave campaign. He has dubbed this the Strange Case of the Missing Veto.

In an interview for Newsnight, the former defence secretary said that people have overlooked a crucial element of David Cameron's deal with fellow EU leaders in February which prompted the prime minister to trigger the referendum.

This was Mr Cameron's decision to relinquish the UK veto if eurozone leaders eventually decide to underpin new governance arrangements for the single currency in a revision of the Lisbon treaty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36330025

Britain, along with every other EU member state, has the right to veto any EU treaty revision. But in exchange for the concessions he won from fellow EU leaders in February, the prime minister said he would put away the famous Thatcher handbag and actually go further by supporting further integration in the eurozone.

Mr Fox told me this is a profound mistake which will weaken the UK's hand in the EU.

"Even if there is something that is harmful to the UK's interests we have already agreed in advance to implement it. That is what it is to be a sitting duck or at least that is what it will be if we choose to remain in the EU.

"What we have done ahead of this next treaty is we have written a blank cheque to Europe that said you can put on that anything you want and we will guarantee to cash it," he said.

So the EU is so concerned that we stay in the club that we have to lose out veto to do so...

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Osem

I recall having an argument with Nigel De Gruchy a few years ago. He was banging on about what a clown Boris was/is and until I reminded him that 'Boris the clown' had comfortably defeated his preferred choice (Red Ken). Not bad for a clown eh?

Let's be honest, although some are far worse than others, none of our current crop of politicians are beyond reproach or criticism. As usual the public's choice boils down to the least worst option and that's the choice we're faced with at the forthcoming referendum. Getting out is the least worst option.

Have we ever had a great class of Politicians in our time? I can't think of a time where Tory or labour I've said; 'what a great set of Politicians we have this time.'

[Ramrod]

Thatcher was the last great one.
Shame about the wasted promise of Blair......

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Thatcher was the last great one.
Shame about the wasted promise of Blair......

Wash your mouth out! You obviously don't live in the N/E.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Wash your mouth out! You obviously don't live in the N/E.

Great and popular are often not synonymous.

Frankly it's become Chicken Little time again..

Now it's the future of the NHS that will be affected by brexit it just doesn't end a constant stream of fear mongering and scare tactics from both side's, I'm so sick of it and we've got weeks to go yet.

[heero_yuy]

It gets more stupid every day. BSE are getting desperate.

Anyhow I would have thought the NHS was in much greater danger with EU meddling from Brussels and the desire for uniformity of goods and services across the whole EU than being run, regulated and financed by our own government.

Apparently all those British 'luvvies' would suffer artistically should we leave the EU ,films won't get made and groups won't be able to tour unless we are part of the EU ,wonder how Hollywood and all those American bands touring Europe manage

http://news.sky.com/story/1699062/ce...or-remain-vote

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Wash your mouth out! You obviously don't live in the N/E.

Yeah Blair always leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth...

---------- Post added at 16:02 ---------- Previous post was at 15:58 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Apparently all those British 'luvvies' would suffer artistically should we leave the EU ,films won't get made and groups won't be able to tour unless we are part of the EU ,wonder how Hollywood and all those American bands touring Europe manage

http://news.sky.com/story/1699062/ce...or-remain-vote

The great and the good at it again I see. I'm surprised they have time for all this stuff when they're not taking in migrants, tackling poverty, preaching morality etc. etc. etc.

Odd how so many of them don't mind living lives of such privilege and affluence when others around them struggle and starve...

Has the sky fallen in yet? I have to admit I've pretty much zoned out now, as far as the EU referendum is concerned. For me it's settled, I am voting leave, unless the remain campaign can wind their hysteria in a bit and give me some believable reasons.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Chris

Has the sky fallen in yet? I have to admit I've pretty much zoned out now, as far as the EU referendum is concerned. For me it's settled, I am voting leave, unless the remain campaign can wind their hysteria in a bit and give me some believable reasons.

Even if they did you'd have to ask why they waited so long to employ those arguments and preferred instead providing the electorate with an unremitting diet of fear and exaggeration. It's perfectly possible to come out on one side or the other whilst at the same time acknowledging the down sides inherent in so doing.

---------- Post added at 16:17 ---------- Previous post was at 16:07 ----------

The increasing Euro-scepticism in Poland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36331903

... But the mood in Poland is different now and the former president's focus was on the challenges facing the EU. At the top of the list: a possible Brexit.

I'm afraid that Brexit would bring about a disintegration of Europe
Aleksander Kwasniewski, Polish President, 1995 - 2005

"It would be very dangerous," he tells me afterwards, "as there is already a complicated momentum in the world and I'm afraid that Brexit would bring about a disintegration of Europe."

Polish politicians of all stripes seem nervous about Britain leaving the EU. Many speak darkly about it ending not just an era, but maybe the European Union itself; a club they fought so hard to join.

There are fears of the practical consequences too.


With more than a million Poles living in the UK and, in many cases, sending money home to their families, Polish officials are concerned that a new economic burden could be placed on their country.

Ironically for Poland, the UK referendum comes at a time of particular frostiness in its relationship with the European Union.

Ever since the conservative Law and Justice Party came to power last year, relations between Warsaw and Brussels have become strained.

The new government's decision to make changes to the Constitutional Court has raised not just eyebrows, but red flags at the European Commission.

After making a preliminary investigation, the Commission is now threatening further action, warning that Poland may be in breach of a fundamental principle of the EU: the rule of law.