[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Hom3r]

Some guy on Radio 5 Live was saying that Italy and another country (can't remember the name) are on the brink, and if Greece goes tits up as expected we will have to help.

[heero_yuy]

Interesting bit of perspective today: I was in a project meeting with some German engineers and after we did all the main meeting agenda we got onto the Brexit subject. Seems the mood music is very upset about the money that Germany pays into the EU and is "wasted" (Their term) on the Southern EU states like Greece and Italy.

They're not impressed with Merkel letting immigrants flood into their country either.

It was also interesting that there was no concern that Brexit would stop our collaborative efforts on product development.

[Ignitionnet]

Germany seem relatively pragmatic and by the accounts I've heard want to ensure we've a fair deal with no 'recrimination' if we do leave the EU.

They have far bigger things on their mind, such as Eurozone stagflation and how much of a bill they're going to receive from the combination of the refugee / migrant crisis, the death throes of the Greek economy and the possible implosion of Portugal and Italy, both of whom are still in deep excreta.

Ah I see Italy have won some 'flexibility'. Spain may not get nailed until after their election for nakedly political purposes, and Portugal are hosed.

https://www.euractiv.com/section/eur...y-on-deficits/

Look at those debt to GDP ratios of Italy and Spain, with no inflation to erode the nominal value of the debt, alongside the deficits in Spain, Greece and Portugal. Delightful.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Its made me lean towards staying rather than leaving. Now isn't the right time to be leaving imo

Last chance. If we don't leave now, given the stated aims of the EU, we never will be allowed to try to again (unless it implodes at some point and we obviously then go down with it).

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 21:12 ----------

Originally Posted by Hom3r

Some guy on Radio 5 Live was saying that Italy and another country (can't remember the name) are on the brink,

Spain, iirc

---------- Post added at 21:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

It's simple.
If you don't mind being ruled by Brussels, vote in.
If you want to have some semblance of self determination in the UK, vote out.
It really is as simple as that.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Just like the Scottish referendum was the only chance for them to leave and yet it's back on the table already. We can talk about leaving or hold another referendum when ever the public wills it, we can only physically leave once though and now is not that time imo, if it was 2006 I'd be in favour, in fact if I trawled through my posts I'm almost certain I was one of the few advocates for leave back then on here.

Unless it's a blowout, unlikely, there even if it is a Remain vote it will immediately be back on the agenda and added to the list of neverendums we have to endure.

Farage has hinted UKIP will be calling for another one if they lose this one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36306681

And it looks like the Tories may attempt to depose Cameron early to get a Brextier into that position: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...e-in-david-ca/

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Damien

And it looks like the Tories may attempt to depose Cameron early to get a Brextier into that position: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...e-in-david-ca/

Given the way Dodgy Dave has behaved in this referendum I very much hope he is deposed, and he should have a nice position in the EU waiting for him if the electorate reject him. That seems to be the usual place where failed national politicians end up.

I wonder how they'd react if Gove and other Tory 'out' ministers got fired if Brexit fails - their version of democracy seems to be 'only if I win'...

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I wonder how they'd react if Gove et al got fired if Brexit fails - their version of democracy seems to be 'only if I win'...

World War 3 I suspect is going to break out either way. Hopefully to come to a swift conclusion with a good result - this is the governing party and we need them functional.

I despise the duplicity the PM has conducted himself with. It was always thought that he had no interest in leaving but getting caught out bargaining with big business before the 'renegotiation' was complete was a no-no.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Given the way Dodgy Dave has behaved in this referendum I very much hope he is deposed, and he should have a nice position in the EU waiting for him if the electorate reject him. That seems to be the usual place where failed national politicians end up.

Those lined up to replace him are hardly better. Except maybe Gove but even he may have been behind the 'Queen backs Brexit' story. Boris yesterday saying you can't buy bananas in batches of more than 2/3 which is obviously rubbish.

Cameron behaved this way during the election too. I am really not sure why Leave expected him not to go all in on this when his leadership is at stake. They're doing the same thing. They did when IDS resigned, they did when they suddenly started rebelling every chance they get, they've done when they suddenly are 'concerned' about NHS privatisation or Cameron's tax affairs.

Personally I hope they all do badly at this point. If they depose him then we're going to get another 4 years of 'time for a referendum on the EU' and if they don't then they'll gridlock the government for 4 years until he does step down.

The Tories aren't up the task of being the Government anymore as they're far more concerned with their own internal drama to bother with minor things like running the country.

I really hate referendums now. They just make everyone lose their minds.

Referendums are not a problem if both sides in them act and conduct themselves intelligently and provide solid information on all the options. What we have had is akin to a schoolyard fight with childish remarks and stunts from both sides that have shown more about the lack of any real political professionalism then the issue being voted on. Most of it is deliberate in my opinion both sides know most of what they have is hyperbole and no real substance to back any of the claims, people citing the BoE, IMF and CBI and other institutions don't have the solid footing they should from those institutions due to the monumental screwups they have all made with previous recent predictions.

Neither side has given any real substance out for undecided people to help them make an informed choice and on the remain side it's deliberate as typically people who can't find sufficient information to form a personal opinion vote for the status quo. Leave really should have had this in the bag by now but the calibre of representative has probably put more people off then it has helped choose leave. As for David Cameron his position whatever the vote to me is untenable his behaviour given his position has been appealing bordering on desperate and has damaged this country internationally.

If we the British public take nothing else from this debacle i hope the low standards of politicians has becoming glaringly obvious and we start expecting and demanding more in our representatives because in or out if this is the politically best this country has we are in serious trouble.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Referendums are not a problem if both sides in them act and conduct themselves intelligently and provide solid information on all the options. What we have had is akin to a schoolyard fight with childish remarks and stunts from both sides that have shown more about the lack of any real political professionalism then the issue being voted on. Most of it is deliberate in my opinion both sides know most of what they have is hyperbole and no real substance to back any of the claims, people citing the BoE, IMF and CBI and other institutions don't have the solid footing they should from those institutions due to the monumental screwups they have all made with previous recent predictions.

Neither side has given any real substance out for undecided people to help them make an informed choice and on the remain side it's deliberate as typically people who can't find sufficient information to form a personal opinion vote for the status quo. Leave really should have had this in the bag by now but the calibre of representative has probably put more people off then it has helped choose leave. As for David Cameron his position whatever the vote to me is untenable his behaviour given his position has been appealing bordering on desperate and has damaged this country internationally.

If we the British public take nothing else from this debacle i hope the low standards of politicians has becoming glaringly obvious and we start expecting and demanding more in our representatives because in or out if this is the politically best this country has we are in serious trouble.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Last chance. If we don't leave now, given the stated aims of the EU, we never will be allowed to try to again (unless it implodes at some point and we obviously then go down with it).

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 21:12 ----------


Spain, iirc

---------- Post added at 21:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

It's simple.
If you don't mind being ruled by Brussels, vote in.
If you want to have some semblance of self determination in the UK, vote out.
It really is as simple as that.

It is that simple. It's no secret they want closer political and monetary integration. In other words, An European Super State.

[Osem]

I was listening to an interview with some leading Polish politicians (including Lech Walesa) yesterday and all of them seemed set against Brexit. Amongst other things there was concern about the effect on the Polish economy of funds being remitted to Poland from the UK by Polish expats possibly drying up. Way to go those Poles eh? They simultaneously help keep the UK and Poland afloat being, despite mostly earning relatively low wages from what I can see, important net contributors to both nations.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Damien

Those lined up to replace him are hardly better. Except maybe Gove but even he may have been behind the 'Queen backs Brexit' story. Boris yesterday saying you can't buy bananas in batches of more than 2/3 which is obviously rubbish.

It referred to wholesale presentation rather than retail. Doesn't apply to retail but not entirely untrue I suppose. Stretching truth a ton, mind you.

I'm going to a Labour in for Britain event next week with John McDonnell, Pat Glass and Yanis Varoufakis presenting. I'm not especially interested in the first two but am looking forward to the case Varoufakis elucidates. I've heard him speak online about it and while it didn't change my mind it was illuminating.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I'm going to a Labour in for Britain event next week with John McDonnell, Pat Glass and Yanis Varoufakis presenting. I'm not especially interested in the first two but am looking forward to the case Varoufakis elucidates. I've heard him speak online about it and while it didn't change my mind it was illuminating.

Illuminating how much of a tit he is?