[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Osem]

The problem of the EU's democracy is that it isn't ours. Like everything else they believe in, it binds every member nation and is never going to truly reflect what the majority of people of the member states want. We can change our government and some say Corbyn's going to revolutionise the way things are done in the UK. How's he, or anyone else, going to do that when the future in the EU is inexorably more central control with correspondingly less able to be done by our own directly elected governments? It doesn't stack up I'm afraid. As 1 of 28 (or more) member states, our voice is just one of many, few of whom have similar national goals, interests and objectives to ours. We've seen in Greece what happens to those who dare to want something different from those based in Frankfurt who know best.

[arcimedes]

I dont think Greece is a good example. I you want a very large loan because of your incompetence you have to put up with the consequences.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by arcimedes

I dont think Greece is a good example. I you want a very large loan because of your incompetence you have to put up with the consequences.

It's an excellent example because had it not been for the EU and the Euro the Greeks could have devalued their currency and pursued their own economic policy, interest rates etc. without being constrained by Brussels and one size fits all which have hugely exacerbated the problem.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Osem

The problem of the EU's democracy is that it isn't ours. Like everything else they believe in, it binds every member nation and is never going to truly reflect what the majority of people of the member states want. We can change our government and some say Corbyn's going to revolutionise the way things are done in the UK. How's he, or anyone else, going to do that when the future in the EU is inexorably more central control with correspondingly less able to be done by our own directly elected governments? It doesn't stack up I'm afraid. As 1 of 28 (or more) member states, our voice is just one of many, few of whom have similar national goals, interests and objectives to ours. We've seen in Greece what happens to those who dare to want something different from those based in Frankfurt who know best.

Is our system better though, and how?

The big difference I see between the EU parliament and our own is the lack of party politics in the EU parliament. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. It's good in some ways as there isn't a whip. That said, there are of course loose groups in the Parliament such as the ECR and EPP but they don't have the power of parties in the UK Parliament.

The bad side as I see it is that you can tend to end up with consensus politics rather than having a single party government driving decisions through. Of course, single party governments are not truly representative either, ask the Scottish what they think of the Westminster government and whether it really represents their interests.

I don't think the way the systems work can really point to one systems being better than the other, they are just on a spectrum of parliamentary systems. Swings and roundabouts I guess...

Sorry, stream of consciousness on my lunch break

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I have never voted for the Conservative party in my life and doubt I ever will. My wife thought I would flash in to flame when I crossed the boundary or Rickmansworth Conservative Club!

My opinions, and they are mine, are born out of working in Europe and with Europeans (my boss is German, the rest of my team are Belgian, French and Austrian) I work for a US company with a global reach and have some understanding of the pain of doing business in non-EU companies. I am a scientist by trade but love learning about modern history, especially the history post second world war of which the formation of the EU is a part.

However, the most important thing is that I do not trust the media, especially the press. They are all following their own agendas to put spin on issues. So, for example, the Mail says the EU is not democratic, I then don't take this on face value but look in to this and what do you know, it's not really true.

I did read the governments leaflet and found it wishy washy, without much evidence but a basis for me to investigate further. My mind was made up long before the leaflet came out I'm afraid but I will happily look in to anything that will prove me wrong.

Fair enough you have your reasons, I have mine. Will your job be effected if we vote to leave?

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:13 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

It's an excellent example because had it not been for the EU and the Euro the Greeks could have devalued their currency and pursued their own economic policy, interest rates etc. without being constrained by Brussels and one size fits all which have hugely exacerbated the problem.

This is the crux of the matter. They don't have their own monetary policy now, they have to do what the EU tells them. They can't get out of the mess on their own and I doubt they ever will now. They are due a big payment at the end of the month to the EU in the Billions. Can't see them being able to pay it all so the EU will slap more conditions on them. To those who want to stay I ask this: If Britain were in the same position as the Greeks and had to borrow to get them out the crud, would you be happy with the conditions imposed on Greece being applied to the UK?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Is our system better though, and how?The big difference I see between the EU parliament and our own is the lack of party politics in the EU parliament. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. It's good in some ways as there isn't a whip. That said, there are of course loose groups in the Parliament such as the ECR and EPP but they don't have the power of parties in the UK Parliament.

The bad side as I see it is that you can tend to end up with consensus politics rather than having a single party government driving decisions through. Of course, single party governments are not truly representative either, ask the Scottish what they think of the Westminster government and whether it really represents their interests.

I don't think the way the systems work can really point to one systems being better than the other, they are just on a spectrum of parliamentary systems. Swings and roundabouts I guess...

Sorry, stream of consciousness on my lunch break

It doesn't matter. What matters is that it's our system, made by people we elect and can fire if we choose. The fact that it's not perfect doesn't alter that. Changing anything about the EU is undeniably far harder for various reasons, including ones of national interest. Our system has time and time again forced change whether that be to unpopular policies (e.g. academy schools very recently) or indeed unpopular party leaders and governments. So if we're comparing systems I'd argue ours is far from perfect but it's rather better than the EU alternative in which we'll be increasingly told what to do by people who certainly don't have our interests as much at heart as we do.

[arcimedes]

Originally Posted by Osem

It's an excellent example because had it not been for the EU and the Euro the Greeks could have devalued their currency and pursued their own economic policy, interest rates etc. without being constrained by Brussels and one size fits all which have hugely exacerbated the problem.

They could have left but chose not probably for the reason that the terms they could have got would very probably been worse.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Answered like a true Pro-European. Well Done. Tell me to the Remainers have a script they stick to cos you sound just like Cameron. Or could it be the leaflet the Government spent £9m. on, which btw I never got and I need something to start a bonfire in the garden, brainwashing you. You are all singing from the same Hymn sheet. Can't you at least give us your reasons for remaining instead of being a parrot?

Seems a shame that you have to reply with a personal attack on someone who has spent the time & effort to reply to your questions.

People are allowed to have their own opinion, a one different to yours ..

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Seems a shame that you have to reply with a personal attack on someone who has spent the time & effort to reply to your questions.

People are allowed to have their own opinion, a one different to yours ..

Indeed they do I was making comparrisons. You all sing from the same sheet.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by arcimedes

They could have left but chose not probably for the reason that the terms they could have got would very probably been worse.

If they hadn't been in they could have taken the required economic action unilaterally before things got so bad, as it is staying in the EU/Euro helped mask what was going on for far longer than would have been the case. Leaving the EU and Euro isn't something which can be done quickly.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Fair enough you have your reasons, I have mine. Will your job be effected if we vote to leave?[COLOR="Silver"]

That's cool, it's been a stimulating conversation and a good challenge to my preconceptions which is surely a good thing.

No, I should be OK but it might be interesting how my customers in the pharmaceutical industry are affected. I can easily see some moving from the UK to Ireland over the course of time as there is a huge base there of this industry.

My colleagues who look after transportation and logistics however are going to have a hell of a time

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Indeed they do I was making comparrisons. You all sing from the same sheet.

No you weren't, you were just being rude. Maybe that's what people resort to when they are losing the argument

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

That's cool, it's been a stimulating conversation and a good challenge to my preconceptions which is surely a good thing.

No, I should be OK but it might be interesting how my customers in the pharmaceutical industry are affected. I can easily see some moving from the UK to Ireland over the course of time as there is a huge base there of this industry.

My colleagues who look after transportation and logistics however are going to have a hell of a time

Fine but don't read too much into this jobs will be lost thing. Sure some will be but others will be created with new agreements.

The EU couldn't afford to slap big tariffs on us no more than we can them as we need each other to trade. It's just I believe it's better done without being in the club so to speak.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

This will be your only chance to leave. There won't be another time unless the EU implodes.

Just like the Scottish referendum was the only chance for them to leave and yet it's back on the table already. We can talk about leaving or hold another referendum when ever the public wills it, we can only physically leave once though and now is not that time imo, if it was 2006 I'd be in favour, in fact if I trawled through my posts I'm almost certain I was one of the few advocates for leave back then on here.

Our leaving does not mean we no longer bother with the EU in terms of trade or even relations our relationship will change but it's up to the government how it will change and whether the remaining EU nations want to punish us for daring to question the grand project. Trade flows both ways and benefits both us and the EU there is no practical reason for trade to be impacted too much and jobs wise whatever we might lose we will be more then able to replace when we can arrange our own trade agreements with the rest of the globe.

This doesn't have to be a hostile split and it doesn't need to damage anyone unless people are too inept or petty to make things work. The argument of we can vote out later on is not valid to be honest as the next treaty will make damn sure nations are locked into whatever path is chosen and the ability of individual nations to vote out will be curtailed. If you believe that we can vote out later then you have to believe if we vote leave now we can vote to rejoin later or is it only allowed one way?.

Surely if it's really going to be so bad for us leaving the EU then we will all see the benefits of EU membership within a few years and a UK fully committed to the EU could vote back in, wouldn't that be better for all concerned. Free trade and cooperation were the goals under which the UK originally voted to join the eec and given that has all fallen by the wayside and a single European state is the aim now I think it is better for the UK to go alone and the only reason there is concern in the EU isn't for us citizens of the UK it isn't even concern for the UK it's the fact that if the UK votes out that vote will have to be given to all nations and quite a few are likely to leave.

Better to be the first out then hang in there and hope it all works out which isn't looking great right now.