[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU - Page 124

12-05-2016, 20:48

Well we are already in recession so there goes that threat as it clearly has little to do with in or out. I think people in this referendum really need to follow personal belief and vote that way as neither official side is in my eyes reliable or trustworthy with what they say. I have noticed that real hard facts are getting harder to come by unless you really look and lets be honest most wont really look. While i am not overly impressed with the out campaigns they havent gone full on fear tactic as much as the stay in brigade. This referendum is probably the most important vote many will have in their life and the conduct on both sides has been pathetic highlighting how low our standards in elected officials have become and the trend seems to be heading downward. Take the things that our valuable to you personally and decide which serves them better in or out.

**Damien** · 12-05-2016, 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Well we are already in recession so there goes that threat as it clearly has little to do with in or out.

No we're not.

techguyone · 12-05-2016, 21:06

Well bits of us are...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36266178

---------- Post added at 21:06 ---------- Previous post was at 21:06 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Well we are already in recession so there goes that threat as it clearly has little to do with in or out. I think people in this referendum really need to follow personal belief and vote that way as neither official side is in my eyes reliable or trustworthy with what they say. I have noticed that real hard facts are getting harder to come by unless you really look and lets be honest most wont really look. While i am not overly impressed with the out campaigns they havent gone full on fear tactic as much as the stay in brigade. This referendum is probably the most important vote many will have in their life and the conduct on both sides has been pathetic highlighting how low our standards in elected officials have become and the trend seems to be heading downward. Take the things that our valuable to you personally and decide which serves them better in or out.

Good advice.

papa smurf · 12-05-2016, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

No we're not.

the only company doing well is the one making all the Anderson shelters for ww3, hope mine arrives before 23 june .

Osem · 12-05-2016, 21:35

I think those wanting to remain also need to consider what the EU is going to become not just what it is right now. Anyone who thinks the UK is going to stop the inexorable drive to a single European state and all that involves is naïve IMHO. So vote to stay in by all means but realise what you're actually voting for.

**Damien** · 12-05-2016, 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem

I think those wanting to remain also need to consider what the EU is going to become not just what it is right now. Anyone who thinks the UK is going to stop the inexorable drive to a single European state and all that involves is naïve IMHO. So vote to stay in by all means but realise what you're actually voting for.

I don't buy that though. Britain has already opted out of parts of integration it doesn't like (Euro, Schengen) but more crucially will retain the option to leave at a later date. We also still have a Veto within the EU.

13-05-2016, 01:41

Our options have diminshed with every treaty and i dont have faith in future politicians not to burrow us all the way into the federal hole which is the endgame of many in brussels. There is no doubt where the eu is going given enough time and passive populations and its a direction i dont believe in or think will end well.

pip08456 · 13-05-2016, 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

We also still have a Veto within the EU.

BRITISH government votes failed to block a single European Union measure during David Cameron's first five years in office, new research showed yesterday.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...ain-five-years

No 10 rejects Boris Johnson's call for Britain to have EU law veto

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...in-eu-law-veto

Measuring Britain’s influence in the Council of Ministers

http://forbritain.org/measuring_brit..._ministers.pdf

Big Brian · 13-05-2016, 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

No we're not.

The whole world' economy is in decline so it has nothing to do with in or out.

---------- Post added at 06:54 ---------- Previous post was at 06:26 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't buy that though. Britain has already opted out of parts of integration it doesn't like (Euro, Schengen) but more crucially will retain the option to leave at a later date. We also still have a Veto within the EU.

So why not just leave now? You are not going to get reforms. Cameron again mentioned vote to remain in a 'reformed' Europe but it is NOT reformed so how can we vote to remain in what does not exist?

papa smurf · 13-05-2016, 07:07

What are you so scared of, Dave? the Prime Minister or his office is trying to choose who should be making the case against him.

David Cameron refused to go head-to-head with Boris Johnson over Brexit
Mr Johnson vowed to debate with ‘anybody’ as he promotes leaving EU
PM only agreed to appear on an EU debate programme with Nigel Farage

Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg added: ‘The Prime Minister is “frit”. Boris is a classically trained debater. The Prime Minister is highly competitive and hates losing. He should screw his courage to the sticking place, take on Boris.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz48VtRO1Gs
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Osem · 13-05-2016, 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't buy that though. Britain has already opted out of parts of integration it doesn't like (Euro, Schengen) but more crucially will retain the option to leave at a later date. We also still have a Veto within the EU.

That's of course your prerogative. What we've seen over the years is that the EU has, in one way or another, always grabbed more powers. My belief is that leopards don't change their spots and there is precisely no evidence that the EU has any intention of reforming itself or changing course.

Do you really think the things you cited are cast in stone because I don't. We've had bugger all influence in the EU throughout the time we've been in the club and that's a fact.

I see the B of E is a fully paid up member of project fear now, quelle surprise...

Big Brian · 13-05-2016, 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf

What are you so scared of, Dave? the Prime Minister or his office is trying to choose who should be making the case against him.

David Cameron refused to go head-to-head with Boris Johnson over Brexit
Mr Johnson vowed to debate with ‘anybody’ as he promotes leaving EU
PM only agreed to appear on an EU debate programme with Nigel Farage

Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg added: ‘The Prime Minister is “frit”. Boris is a classically trained debater. The Prime Minister is highly competitive and hates losing. He should screw his courage to the sticking place, take on Boris.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz48VtRO1Gs
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

He won't though. Boris would eat him for breakfast. Nigel, on the other hand, can only talk about immigration so David sees him as the much easier person to defeat in a debate.

I can understand his dilemma. The Tories are divided enough as it is and he doesn't want to make things worse. As if they can get much worse. If it was a head to head as to which of them would be Prime Minister, I wonder if David would take him on?

Ramrod · 13-05-2016, 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't buy that though.

Does the EUs stated aim of "ever closer fiscal and political union" not make you worry?

**Damien** · 13-05-2016, 09:09

Cameron doesn't want to enter a debate where he can only lose ground. It was the same with the election in 2015 with Miliband, they calculated that by taking part in a 1-on-1 debate it would only elevate Miliband to the determent of Cameron. So he refused to take part. The same goes here, Cameron is still largely seen as moderate, pragmatic and statesman-like whilst Farage is seen but non-UKIPers are a bit loopy. They want voters to have this debate seen as Cameron vs Farage, the sane against the fruitcakes. Last thing they want to do is elevate someone serious who will add gravity and legitimacy to the Leave campaign in the mind of voters.

Vote Leave are right to be upset that Cameron is effectively blackmailing broadcasters to influence who they invite in the debate. It is a calculated and cynical move. However this is how politics works and I think it's a tad rich for senior Tories on the Vote Leave campaign to suddenly take issue with the same tactics which won them a majority. They're also incredibly naive to have thought that Cameron wouldn't put everything he has into this campaign and use every trick in the book when they've put his job on the line, the moment IDS resigned and Boris went to Leave they entered this game.

---------- Post added at 09:09 ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Does the EUs stated aim of "ever closer fiscal and political union" not make you worry?

No because it's just a symbolic phrase. I think that's what some Eurocrats want but they'll continue to face resistance from the member states and their leaders. Few of whom want that. Our change to the treaty which says 'Britain is exempt from ever closer union' is just as worthwhile as a stated aim.

Osem · 13-05-2016, 09:18

So just what is it about the last 30 odd years of EU reality that leads you to believe it's just a symbolic phrase? It doesn't look very symbolic from where I'm sitting.

The EU is more than capable of changing the rules, moving the goalposts and coercing other nations to get what it wants. If we stay in what's to stop our own government going along with all that using the referendum vote to justify it. Successive govts. have already done just that without asking the public to vote on it - little by little our status has been eroded and the only way we can rid ourselves of any possibility of being further drawn into the EU quagmire is to leave now and I'm praying that enough people can see sense to enable that to happen.