[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Originally Posted by Gavin78

He should be hung for treason selling his own country out and resorting to propaganda putting fear into those less fortunate.

Well that's reasonable.

Originally Posted by Damien

Because one of the Leave campaign's arguments has been that leaving the EU will free us up to do deals with other nations, America being the largest example. This rather hurts that argument. It also adds to the weight of voices saying that voting Leave will cost you and traditionally voters tend to vote on the economy.

.

I'm fed of both campaigns using trade deals as a reason to leave or remain ,it's quite simply rubbish .Trade deals will happen regardless of our position in Europe .Last year there was $56,352m in exports and $57,805m in imports, that trade will not disappear if we leave the EU simply because the companies and organisations that do that trade will still want to trade .
If voters are going to vote on the economy then it's a slam dunk for the leave campaign because us dumb voters have seen us give the rest of Europe billions in financial aid propping up bankrupt banks on the continent as part of our obligation as a EU state

[Osem]

Originally Posted by martyh

I'm fed of both campaigns using trade deals as a reason to leave or remain ,it's quite simply rubbish .Trade deals will happen regardless of our position in Europe .Last year there was $56,352m in exports and $57,805m in imports, that trade will not disappear if we leave the EU simply because the companies and organisations that do that trade will still want to trade .
If voters are going to vote on the economy then it's a slam dunk for the leave campaign because us dumb voters have seen us give the rest of Europe billions in financial aid propping up bankrupt banks on the continent as part of our obligation as a EU state

... and I reckon our obligation to the EU will only ever increase too, in a number of ways. Whether it's the Euro, Greece, open borders, expansionism etc. you can bet we'll receive more than our fair share of the pain their madness has created. No we can't, sadly, isolate ourselves from all of the fallout but staying in will make matters far worse IMHO since our leaders have proved to be totally spineless when it comes to telling it how it is.

Why anyone would think that other countries we're in competition with would really have our best interests at heart is beyond me. They quite rightly care most about themselves and I've no doubt us staying in to carry on paying the bills, for example, would suit them just fine.

---------- Post added at 09:13 ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

It's not aimed at you (or me for that matter) but undecided voters. The idea being that there will be enough voices warning of the economic risk that people will vote to Remain. It doesn't matter that you think that logic is wrong unless other people become convinced it's wrong too.

Does it matter if they're 'seriously scared'? They're campaigning with everything they've got. I think it would be better for Leave if they weren't scared. Maybe they've learnt the dangers of complacency from the Scottish campaign.

Yes it does, it matters because they sense they could well lose and that should encourage those of us who can see beyond the ends of our noses and want to get out and those who feel likewise but believe it's a done deal so not worth voting on.

If they weren't running so scared it'd be proof they felt they had the matter in the bag. They clearly don't feel they've won just yet.

Originally Posted by martyh

If voters are going to vote on the economy then it's a slam dunk for the leave campaign because us dumb voters have seen us give the rest of Europe billions in financial aid propping up bankrupt banks on the continent as part of our obligation as a EU state

If the Economy was really a 'slam dunk' for the Leave campaign then the referendum will already have been won for them. It's not as if it's a love of the EU and is keeping Remain level in the polling or if immigration is a strong point for the Remain campaign either. It's evidently not the case the economy is a 'slam dunk' for leave.

Plenty of economists and organisations have said the opposite as well. http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0XA17D

Polling suggests that the public currently believe it's risk too: http://www.itv.com/news/2016-04-20/i...eu-referendum/
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I am not saying this can't be turned around by Leave but it's simply wrong to suggest that if this were decided on the economy that it's a slam dunk for Leave. I am curious as to why you think Remain even stand a chance if you believe this to be the case because I can't see what else they have.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Mr K

The game's over guys. Its a done deal, always has been. Although many moan about the EU, they think again when they realise how Brexit will personally affect their own prosperity. The leave 'campaign', if you can call it that, is a divided shambles. The polls are horrendously wrong again, its going to be an embarrassingly large landslide for remain.

It's talk like that, that will hand the referendum to remain. Let's look at what he said and analyse it.

Britain would go to the back of the queue regarding a trade agreement.

All Agreements would not cease to be in the event of a Leave vote. They can't just tear up our present agreement.

That is only HIS opinion. He's out this year and has no idea what the next President will do or how he/she will view the situation.

He said it's up to the voters but throws that spanner in the works to influence a Remain vote when he has no right getting involved. Blackmailing the voters into voting remain will not go down well with the Leave Camp.

Even Remain voters know there is no way on God's green earth he or any other President would sign up to the kind of restrictions imposed on us by the EU, he said as much.

It's a blatant scare tactic engineered by No. 10 to influence a remain vote. Wake up and smell the coffee mate the game is FAR from up. See it for what it is - a dirty trick concocted up by Cameron and Obama.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

It's talk like that, that will hand the referendum to remain. Let's look at what he said and analyse it.

Britain would go to the back of the queue regarding a trade agreement.

All Agreements would not cease to be in the event of a Leave vote. They can't just tear up our present agreement.

That is only HIS opinion. He's out this year and has no idea what the next President will do or how he/she will view the situation.

He said it's up to the voters but throws that spanner in the works to influence a Remain vote when he has no right getting involved. Blackmailing the voters into voting remain will not go down well with the Leave Camp.

Even Remain voters know there is no way on God's green earth he or any other President would sign up to the kind of restrictions imposed on us by the EU, he said as much.

It's a blatant scare tactic engineered by No. 10 to influence a remain vote. Wake up and smell the TEA mate the game is FAR from up. See it for what it is - a dirty trick concocted up by Cameron and Obama.

fixed for you

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

Because one of the Leave campaign's arguments has been that leaving the EU will free us up to do deals with other nations, America being the largest example. This rather hurts that argument. It also adds to the weight of voices saying that voting Leave will cost you and traditionally voters tend to vote on the economy.

I am surprised at the ferocity of the Governments campaign so far. The last two weeks have been relentless from them. The leaflet, the treasury report, Obama's intervention. Any Tories who thought that Cameron and Osborne weren't really in this fight might be dispelled by now. They're throwing everything and everyone at it. I am not sure Vote Leave expected the onslaught to be quite his heavy, I think they assumed it would be a rather low-key affair. It's going to be hard to see how the Tories reconcile after this.

I wonder if they have anything else planned. It seems they've decided to go all out as early as possible...

Forget about America. Any existing deal between the UK and USA will NOT be effected. Future deals is what he's talking about. The Emerging Markets are Asia and South America. That's the ones we should concentrate on.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

It's talk like that, that will hand the referendum to remain. Let's look at what he said and analyse it.

Britain would go to the back of the queue regarding a trade agreement.

All Agreements would not cease to be in the event of a Leave vote. They can't just tear up our present agreement.

That is only HIS opinion. He's out this year and has no idea what the next President will do or how he/she will view the situation.

He said it's up to the voters but throws that spanner in the works to influence a Remain vote when he has no right getting involved. Blackmailing the voters into voting remain will not go down well with the Leave Camp.

Even Remain voters know there is no way on God's green earth he or any other President would sign up to the kind of restrictions imposed on us by the EU, he said as much.

It's a blatant scare tactic engineered by No. 10 to influence a remain vote. Wake up and smell the coffee mate the game is FAR from up. See it for what it is - a dirty trick concocted up by Cameron and Obama.

I think Boris is joining the dirty tricks brigade:

Obama hits back at Boris Johnson's alleged smears

I think that Boris must be rattled to start making personal remarks on Obama's racial background ..

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Osem

None of this alters anything for me and HMG's tactics don't surprise me either. There's a lot of powerful vested interests applying pressure who don't give a fig for our sovereignty or anything else. I reckon they must be seriously scared.

They are. They now realise that leaving is a real possibility and will use any dirty trick like this concoction between Cameron and Obama to force a Remain vote. Just see it for what it is and hope people on leave don't fall for it.

Originally Posted by Osem

If they weren't running so scared it'd be proof they felt they had the matter in the bag. They clearly don't feel they've won just yet.

It would be remarkably stupid of them to assume they have won. I don't think Leave will have a turnout problem and one crisis could turn the tide.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Gavin78

I'm still voting out

Me too

Originally Posted by Damien

If the Economy was really a 'slam dunk' for the Leave campaign then the referendum will already have been won for them. It's not as if it's a love of the EU and is keeping Remain level in the polling or if immigration is a strong point for the Remain campaign either. It's evidently not the case the economy is a 'slam dunk' for leave.

Plenty of economists and organisations have said the opposite as well. http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0XA17D

Polling suggests that the public currently believe it's risk too: http://www.itv.com/news/2016-04-20/i...eu-referendum/


I am not saying this can't be turned around by Leave but it's simply wrong to suggest that if this were decided on the economy that it's a slam dunk for Leave. I am curious as to why you think Remain even stand a chance if you believe this to be the case because I can't see what else they have.

I would suggest that all the economists and organisations you speak of try to see things from the point of view of the ordinary bloke in the street, who ,for the past 5 yrs or so have been bombarded by news items that we are giving billions to such and such bank because the EU says we must or billions in aid to other countries because the EU says we must ,or allowing thousands upon thousands of migrants into the country because the EU says we must and meanwhile the ordinary bloke in the street can't get a appointment at his doctors for a week or his dole has been cut because of cut backs so we can give the billions to a foreign bank .
The hardest task for the leave campaign is not convincing the ordinary bloke in the street that trade deals won't suffer or financial chaos won't ensue if we leave, it will be convincing them to vote because if they do that then it will be a landslide victory for the leave campaign

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

fixed for you

Just think about it and if you don't agree then say so and why.

---------- Post added at 10:24 ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

I think Boris is joining the dirty tricks brigade:

Obama hits back at Boris Johnson's alleged smears

I think that Boris must be rattled to start making personal remarks on Obama's racial background ..

I agree he shouldn't lower himself to their level. We can win this if we stick to the facts, no need to resort to dirty tricks. It's one of the reasons I didn't pursue a Political Career. I'm too honest and I don't like dirty tricks. If you can't win on merit by presenting your arguments and facts it's not worth winning. Winning that way does not mean it's best for the country.

Originally Posted by martyh

I would suggest that all the economists and organisations you speak of try to see things from the point of view of the ordinary bloke in the street, who ,for the past 5 yrs or so have been bombarded by news items that we are giving billions to such and such bank because the EU says we must or billions in aid to other countries because the EU says we must ,or allowing thousands upon thousands of migrants into the country because the EU says we must and meanwhile the ordinary bloke in the street can't get a appointment at his doctors for a week or his dole has been cut because of cut backs so we can give the billions to a foreign bank .

Most of our contributions to foreign banks have been via the IMF rather than the EU. Papers would say 'EU' because they're EU banks but the money is largely via the IMF. I think there are two exceptions which was Ireland, of our own accord because the banks are so linked, and a story a while back about the European Stability Mechanism being used for Greece but a quick Google couldn't confirm if that ever did actually happen.

Foreign aid is also largely our own policy.

Immigration is the main one and is Leave's best asset. Not the economy.

The hardest task for the leave campaign is not convincing the ordinary bloke in the street that trade deals won't suffer or financial chaos won't ensue if we leave, it will be convincing them to vote because if they do that then it will be a landslide victory for the leave campaign

I don't think Leave have a turnout problem. I really think the economy is their biggest weakness but if they do have the economy, immigration and the rest in their favour they we're right, it's a landslide victory they'll win.

Originally Posted by Damien

Most of our contributions to foreign banks have been via the IMF rather than the EU. Papers would say 'EU' because they're EU banks but the money is largely via the IMF. I think there are two exceptions which was Ireland, of our own accord because the banks are so linked, and a story a while back about the European Stability Mechanism being used for Greece but a quick Google couldn't confirm if that ever did actually happen.

Foreign aid is also largely our own policy.

Immigration is the main one and is Leave's best asset. Not the economy.



I don't think Leave have a turnout problem. I really think the economy is their biggest weakness but if they do have the economy, immigration and the rest in their favour they we're right, it's a landslide victory they'll win.

That is the point i'm making ,most ordinary people will base their voting intentions on what they hear on the news or read in the Sun/Mirror etc ,or see in their local area not what various trade organisations,treasury statistics or Obama says .For most people the EU is perceived to be a money grabbing ,freedom sucking bloated organisation and that is what they will base their decision on regardless of what the facts are