Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs

Originally Posted by Stop It

Well, if PT is losing £1 million a day, the Govt could actually pay £20,000 (In benefits and lost tax revenue) to 15,000 people (Which is what is said to be at stake here in total if PT went under) a year. This would cost £821,917 a day, so would be cheaper than eating the losses at the plant. The losses currently at the plant are staggering and to be honest, 15,000 jobs lost is a doomsday scenario. Just taking the plant and eating that sort of loss is not only fiscally irresponsible anyway, but maybe more expensive than the "worst case" scenario.

The cost to the local economy, given that the benefits paid to the workers would in many cases be lower than their wages, would be significant. There is also a long-term socio-economic cost associated with long term high levels of unemployment in a community. Abandoning the plant in favour of putting the workers on benefits should be at the bottom of a long list of potential solutions to the problem.

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Chris

The cost to the local economy, given that the benefits paid to the workers would in many cases be lower than their wages, would be significant. There is also a long-term socio-economic cost associated with long term high levels of unemployment in a community. Abandoning the plant in favour of putting the workers on benefits should be at the bottom of a long list of potential solutions to the problem.

Oh yes, I totally agree, and I didn't mean to say that I supported that idea at all. Closing up shop completely and throwing that many skilled workers onto the scrapheap would be a monumentally stupid idea. So would full nationalisation and putting taxpayers on the hook for the plant would not fly.

However, if a credible, long term plan can be created that takes into account the full economic cycle and potential pitfalls associated with fluctuating commodity prices? The Govt should provide support to realise such a plan. Any plan that boils down to "Lend us some money, you know we'll be good for it when prices rise" should be refused.

[Chrysalis]

we should do what america does, reward government contracts to uk firms, make the contracts generous enough if needed to single handedly keep the company afloat, if no contracts to give out, then think of some phony thing to order.

Sadly this is way beyond us now, we got our services and financial sectors to worry about. Whilst calling all the redundant manual workers benefit scroungers.

So in this case we approach the steel company, ask them what contract they need to make the plant viable, draw it up.

[Taf]

EU tariff rules have allowed the flooding of markets with cheaper, inferior quality, Chinese steel. In fact not just allowed, but positively welcomed.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

we should do what america does, reward government contracts to uk firms, make the contracts generous enough if needed to single handedly keep the company afloat, if no contracts to give out, then think of some phony thing to order.

Sadly this is way beyond us now, we got our services and financial sectors to worry about. Whilst calling all the redundant manual workers benefit scroungers.

So in this case we approach the steel company, ask them what contract they need to make the plant viable, draw it up.

Sorry but that really is as much nonsense as claiming none of them are.

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by Taf

EU tariff rules have allowed the flooding of markets with cheaper, inferior quality, Chinese steel. In fact not just allowed, but positively welcomed.

I keep on hearing this, but if Chinese Steel was so much worse, wouldn't customers value the higher quality enough to pay for it? After all, if this steel is so rubbish that it would have a higher TCO than the alternatives, only a fool would buy it.

I suspect that it's all too easy to demonise a competitor by calling them rubbish, while at the same time actual customers of the stuff don't seem to be saying the same thing.

Again, blame China for causing the crash ignores the fact that steel production, iron ore mining etc spiked in the last decade thanks to higher demand and thus prices. The higher demand came from China. So, blame them for the crash sure, thank them for giving the industries 10 years of profits first. Also, this isn't a new thing. Basically Iron/Steel went mad up until 2009, cratered and hasn't recovered since. PT has been losing money for a good while, and the last year has only caused more pain. While Anti-Dumping tariffs would make a dent, it would not make this plant profitable.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Taf

EU tariff rules have allowed the flooding of markets with cheaper, inferior quality, Chinese steel. In fact not just allowed, but positively welcomed.

Yes that does seem to be rather ironic, especially now.

If there is a significant market for better quality steel made in the UK then maybe HMG could go about specifying its use for govt. contracts etc. especially where quality and longevity would have additional benefits than using cheaper steel. However, forcing private companies to use an over-specified product where a cheaper alternative would clearly suffice simply means the additional costs are just passed on to someone else right down to the guy in the street who hasn't had a decent pay rise for years but winds up paying more in taxes, prices etc.

It's interesting to note how nobody, so far as I can see, seems to be objecting to cheap oil flooding the UK market because they rather like petrol being 2/3 or the price it was not too long ago. Few tears for all the North Sea oil workers and the businesses which depend on them...

[heero_yuy]

I'm sure anybody buying steel has a solid specification and if the Chinese steel wasn't of good enough quality they wouldn't buy it.

The fact is that China can make, sell and ship steel at a price lower than our cost of production. If it wasn't China it'd be Korea or some other up and coming Asian country and don't forget that Africa has a huge pool of cheap labour and abundant commodities. It might be them next.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by figgyburn

Was in pittsburgh(king steel)usa last year.Nothing left of the huge steel works except a few chimneys left for posterity.What is there now?. A shopping centre of course.Shape of things to come.

Not with the Government allowing the likes of Amazon to actively destroy the Retail industry.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Stop It

I keep on hearing this, but if Chinese Steel was so much worse, wouldn't customers value the higher quality enough to pay for it? After all, if this steel is so rubbish that it would have a higher TCO than the alternatives, only a fool would buy it.

I suspect that it's all too easy to demonise a competitor by calling them rubbish, while at the same time actual customers of the stuff don't seem to be saying the same thing.

Again, blame China for causing the crash ignores the fact that steel production, iron ore mining etc spiked in the last decade thanks to higher demand and thus prices. The higher demand came from China. So, blame them for the crash sure, thank them for giving the industries 10 years of profits first. Also, this isn't a new thing. Basically Iron/Steel went mad up until 2009, cratered and hasn't recovered since. PT has been losing money for a good while, and the last year has only caused more pain. While Anti-Dumping tariffs would make a dent, it would not make this plant profitable.

If you look at the graphs in the BBC link, then you can see UK steel production dropped from 17,000tonnes in 1997 to 11,500tonnes by 2005(BEFORE banking problems) and 10,000tonnes by 2010. It recovered a bit in the past few years. The workforce went from around 35,000 in 1997 to less than 20,000 by 2010. Who was in Government during those years?

The steel industry says it has been hit by a combination of factors: high UK energy prices, the extra cost of climate change policies, and competition from China - there have been allegations that Chinese steel is being sold in the UK at unrealistically low prices.

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by nomadking

If you look at the graphs in the BBC link, then you can see UK steel production dropped from 17,000tonnes in 1997 to 11,500tonnes by 2005(BEFORE banking problems) and 10,000tonnes by 2010. It recovered a bit in the past few years. The workforce went from around 35,000 in 1997 to less than 20,000 by 2010. Who was in Government during those years?

I was talking globally, but yes, we've been dropping production for a while anyway because of our lack of ability to compete, even in the good times.

I'm not for making this into a political football however, that does a dis-service to those jobs relying on a credible, long term solution for the industry.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Stuart

Not with the Government allowing the likes of Amazon to actively destroy the Retail industry.

That's another good example of a situation in which large numbers of people care far less about other people's jobs than they do getting their stuff at a good price and delivered efficiently. It's all very well banging on about protecting jobs but when it's our money we're spending we tend to seek out the cheapest option for getting what we want and if that means buying from a massive conglomerate which pays hardly any tax so be it. There's a good deal of hypocrisy about.

---------- Post added at 12:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 ----------

Originally Posted by Stop It

I was talking globally, but yes, we've been dropping production for a while anyway because of our lack of ability to compete, even in the good times.

I'm not for making this into a political football however, that does a dis-service to those jobs relying on a credible, long term solution for the industry.

Sadly long-termism hasn't been a feature of many governments I can recall but with the pace of change ramping up ever faster, maybe the days of being able to plan well in advance for the future are over anyway.

The trouble is that in the time we're still chewing over what to do about a problem, then going through the inevitable protracted sequence of procedures before doing anything on the ground, the likes of the Chinese have already seen and done it, unhampered by the sort of red tape and legal issues we're always bogged down with. I reckon that we'll have cracked nuclear fusion before the new fission plants are built...

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Stop It

I was talking globally, but yes, we've been dropping production for a while anyway because of our lack of ability to compete, even in the good times.

I'm not for making this into a political football however, that does a dis-service to those jobs relying on a credible, long term solution for the industry.

Shouldn't any long term strategy have started before 2010? UK production fell whilst worldwide demand went up, so what solution could there be?

[Stop It]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Shouldn't any long term strategy have started before 2010? UK production fell whilst worldwide demand went up, so what solution could there be?

Ask Tata Steel. They own the plant after all.

The fact that this is now an issue for Govt is because they no longer want to support the Port Talbot plant. In 2010, they did.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

Isnt it strange, that some people are sdaying that I want it both ways.

We are talking about 15.000, leading to 20.000 people, with families losing there jobs. And being placed on the Dole. If members, think that funny. Well shame on you.

Wales has already been hit badly, by the destruction of the Mining Industry. Totally wiped out.
Now we have the Steel Industry going the same way.

Its people we are talking about. I doubt very much if there are many jobs going in PT, even in Wales.

What the Government should be doing, is exactly right what someone has already said.

The UK government should be giving Orders to BRITISH companies first and foremost.

Not Foreign Companies.

Its about families at the end of the day. I have been made redundant three times, and its not bloody funny, going to the JC and being told that 'you are to experienced' for a pocksy job at 16 grand a year.

In understand that a Company has said that it will go into talks about buying half the plant, but not the Furnaces