[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Tell that to the Bosnians and the CrimeansI seem to remember Thatcher ending the first two and Lech Walesa having a big hand in the third.
.......but feel free to credit the EU with all that

Indirectly what Thatcher did had quite a bit to do with the EU and their red tape but she was more interested in battering the Unions. Look at the damage that has done. 0 hours contracts for one, the scourge of Britain. Poor working conditions like in these big places like Amazon for another. Shorter breaks. No more canteen facilities in factories, it's all vending machines. However that is irrelevant. The EU started getting too big for their boots in the mid '80s. It stopped being a Common Market and became a Political Union. This is when the problems all started. Has nothing at all to do with pre '80s

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Those immigrants were brought in by Labour to fill the jobs our people wouldn't do. If any one is to blame it's them.

Never in my life have I read so much drivel! The 50's and 60 were good years. Even McMillan himself said we never had it so good. It wasn't until Wilson really that things started to go down the gurgler. Oh his first term was ok but from '68 it was all downhill. Again you have them to blame for the treatment of the Workforce at the time. We had no choice but to strike for better conditions and pay. This has sod all to do with the EU though so don't know why you even mention it. I suggest you research why the '70s happened and why these immigrants were brought in then come back and see if you write the same drivel.

Of course it was

Average working week - 48 hours (37 today)
Average annual holidays including bank hols - 16 days (minimum 28 today)
Cost of a pint of milk £1.12 at todays rates (50p today but a lot less in supermarkets)

Obviously there were somethings better and I have been selective but as I said, it was all long summer days picking flowers in the meadow.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Osem

I can't understand why anyone would rather be increasingly ruled by faceless suits in Brussels than by those who are directly accountable to us.

and that, ladies and gentlemen, is the crux of the matter

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Bircho

Of course it was

Average working week - 48 hours (37 today)
Average annual holidays including bank hols - 16 days (minimum 28 today)
Cost of a pint of milk £1.12 at todays rates (50p today but a lot less in supermarkets)

Obviously there were somethings better and I have been selective but as I said, it was all long summer days picking flowers in the meadow.

I don't know where you get that from. Average working week I can go with but that's due to 0 hour contracts.

Milk? 5p a pint. what's that in todays prices think you'll find a lot more. And if you believe things were dearer then you live in a dream. £21 my first wage in 1971 and I thought I was rich. The only reason things like Shoes and Clothes are cheaper is cos they're made by bairns in sweatshops who are lucky if they get a £ a week. If that's progress you can keep it.

Holidays. I don't know anyone who gets that. 2 weeks annual leave =14 days or actually 10 days if you work 5 days and don't count Sat and Sun. Good Friday and Easter Monday off 12. Christmas day, Boxing Day and New Years Day (2nd Jan if in Scotland) gives you 15 days a year. If you are lucky enough to get bank holidays other than those mentioned you could argue for 18 days. So who's getting the 28 minimum days?

Bircho ... A minor housekeeping point, but could you please stop posting your replies within quotes. It makes further responses to you much more fiddly than it needs to be. Just type underneath the quote box, it's perfectly easy for the rest of us to follow which points you're responding to.

In reply to your earlier comments, I'm not sure how you thought your assertion that there were no Brits in Spain prior to 1973 due to Franco, was backed up with statistics about property ownership. It's a complete non-sequitur.

The fact is, Spain had a thriving British expatriate community prior to 1973, just as many non-EU countries have them today. Property ownership rules might change; fair enough. The whole referendum question is a balance between the benefits of membership versus the costs. My basic objection to the EU is on grounds of democracy and sovereignty. Such things cannot be valued against the cost of having a Spanish mortgage.

As for UK/France border arrangements, well yes, I know it as definitely as it is possible to know anything (including the continuance of the arrangements in the long term, even if Britain remains in the EU). As I said earlier, these are bilateral arrangements, unconnected with the EU. There is no reason in law or logic for them to change and, frankly, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate otherwise.

Regarding exports, well an immediate 7pc drop is a far bigger deal than you are portraying it to be. And yes, when we're talking figures this large, I see no problem rounding to the nearest 5. I note you didn't object to me rounding up the UK's export figure in the same sentence, by a somewhat larger amount.

Regarding food hygiene rules, well you might be confident there are no rats in my kitchen if the rules were effective. Unfortunately, economic reality means I personally am only going to be visited once every five years or so, as I am small and therefor a low priority. The local authority has to visit all these places, incurring the costs as they go, yet each individual premises is inspected so infrequently as to make the whole process worthless. In practice, dirty kitchens are uncovered the same way they always were, by zeroing in on clusters of food poisoning after the fact. The difference now, however, is that the council has wasted a lot of money on pointless inspections in the meantime.

Regarding negotiating times: the period is set out in the Treaty of Lisbon and is 2 years.

The terms of any future deal will be no worse than WTO rules and will be at least as good as those enjoyed by Canada, Norway or Switzerland. I know precedent is awkward for Remainers, but it exists nevertheless.

Regarding immigration: what an absurd assertion to make. Immediate suspension of the right of any EU citizen to settle in the UK and take a job is a pretty fundamental change to the UK's ability to police its borders and manage its workforce. It is plain daft to claim none of these powers would be used as the economy required.

Originally Posted by Bircho

Of course it was

Average working week - 48 hours (37 today)
Average annual holidays including bank hols - 16 days (minimum 28 today)
Cost of a pint of milk £1.12 at todays rates (50p today but a lot less in supermarkets)

Obviously there were somethings better and I have been selective but as I said, it was all long summer days picking flowers in the meadow.

Using the working time directive as an example of why we should stay in the EU is not really helping your case imo ,it is the most complicated and useless piece of garbage to come out of Brussels ,why make rules that can be opted out of

[Big Brian]

The UK seems to do a lot of opting out of things in the EU. Erm, pardon my ignorance, but, exactly why are we in the EU?

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

I don't know where you get that from. Average working week I can go with but that's due to 0 hour contracts.

Milk? 5p a pint. what's that in todays prices think you'll find a lot more. And if you believe things were dearer then you live in a dream. £21 my first wage in 1971 and I thought I was rich. The only reason things like Shoes and Clothes are cheaper is cos they're made by bairns in sweatshops who are lucky if they get a £ a week. If that's progress you can keep it.

Holidays. I don't know anyone who gets that. 2 weeks annual leave =14 days or actually 10 days if you work 5 days and don't count Sat and Sun. Good Friday and Easter Monday off 12. Christmas day, Boxing Day and New Years Day (2nd Jan if in Scotland) gives you 15 days a year. If you are lucky enough to get bank holidays other than those mentioned you could argue for 18 days. So who's getting the 28 minimum days?

As said Milk would be £1.12 per pint today based on 1952 prices.

The median wage of a man in 1952 was £9 per week which is £252.69 in todays prices. The median wage today is £517.

Every employee or worker must have at least 28 days holiday (pro-rata for part time employees) by Law including statutory public holidays (bank holidays). That is 4 weeks leave plus the 8 stats. Are you saying you work for someone and only get 15 days holiday a year?

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Bircho

As said Milk would be £1.12 per pint today based on 1952 prices.

The median wage of a man in 1952 was £9 per week which is £252.69 in todays prices. The median wage today is £517.

Every employee or worker must have at least 28 days holiday (pro-rata for part time employees) by Law including statutory public holidays (bank holidays). That is 4 weeks leave plus the 8 stats. Are you saying you work for someone and only get 15 days holiday a year?

No I don't work my friend but my son doesn't get 28 days a year. I was also talking about the 70s not 1952. Wasn't born for another 2 years.

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by martyh

Using the working time directive as an example of why we should stay in the EU is not really helping your case imo ,it is the most complicated and useless piece of garbage to come out of Brussels ,why make rules that can be opted out of

Ok. The working time directive gave the right to every employee:

· A maximum working week of 48 hours
· A rest period of 11 consecutive hours a day
· A rest break when the day is longer than six hours
· A minimum of one rest day per week
· The statutory right to four weeks' holiday

It was introduced by the EU in 1992 but the UK did not introduce until 1998. In 1996 the Government took the EU to court to try and stop the introduction and lost. The Government was supported by the opposition.

Before this time, the number of holiday was written into Law by a 1938 act which basically said you had 7 days holiday (extended to 8 in 1978 by the introduction of the May Day holiday). Outside of that it was up to your employer to decide the number of holidays that should be given. The Government argued this was a burden on Companies and it should be up to individual companies led by market forces that should decide how many holidays you should have.

There was also nothing to indicate you should have a break (the WTD introduced 10 mins for 4 hours worked; 30 mins if more than 6 hours worked).

So this was the "garbage" that was introduced and would not have been introduced but for the EU. Are you saying we should abolish it?

Originally Posted by Big Brian

The UK seems to do a lot of opting out of things in the EU. Erm, pardon my ignorance, but, exactly why are we in the EU?

Because a gang of traitorous, Britain-loathing politicians wanted to end our existence as a nation state and sold the European project to us as a "common market", in the full knowledge that that wasn't its aim, and that the British public wouldn't vote for it if they understood what it was meant to be about.

They took us in without a referendum, then held one on staying in two years later, using the inbuilt bias towards status quo that comes with every referendum to better their chances of getting popular support for it.

That referendum result has been used to justify everything we have signed up to in the EU ever since, with occasional opt-outs to stop national outrage getting too loud.

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

No I don't work my friend but my son doesn't get 28 days a year. I was also talking about the 70s not 1952. Wasn't born for another 2 years.

I think your son needs to check his Contract of Employment. Feel free to PM me on that matter. Your £21 in 1972 would be worth £265.43 at todays prices.

Originally Posted by Bircho

Ok. The working time directive gave the right to every employee:

· A maximum working week of 48 hours
· A rest period of 11 consecutive hours a day
· A rest break when the day is longer than six hours
· A minimum of one rest day per week
· The statutory right to four weeks' holiday

It was introduced by the EU in 1992 but the UK did not introduce until 1998. In 1996 the Government took the EU to court to try and stop the introduction and lost. The Government was supported by the opposition.

Before this time, the number of holiday was written into Law by a 1938 act which basically said you had 7 days holiday (extended to 8 in 1978 by the introduction of the May Day holiday). Outside of that it was up to your employer to decide the number of holidays that should be given. The Government argued this was a burden on Companies and it should be up to individual companies led by market forces that should decide how many holidays you should have.

There was also nothing to indicate you should have a break (the WTD introduced 10 mins for 4 hours worked; 30 mins if more than 6 hours worked).

So this was the "garbage" that was introduced and would not have been introduced but for the EU. Are you saying we should abolish it?

I'm saying that the British public should elect their governments, and thereafter they deserve whatever their government gives them.

The presupposition in your position is that the British government is somehow not competent and requires to be overruled.

As a British citizen and a democrat, who recognises the right of the Government to govern, even when it is run by a party I did not choose, I find your position mildly offensive.

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by Chris

Bircho ... A minor housekeeping point, but could you please stop posting your replies within quotes. It makes further responses to you much more fiddly than it needs to be. Just type underneath the quote box, it's perfectly easy for the rest of us to follow which points you're responding to.

In reply to your earlier comments, I'm not sure how you thought your assertion that there were no Brits in Spain prior to 1973 due to Franco, was backed up with statistics about property ownership. It's a complete non-sequitur.

The fact is, Spain had a thriving British expatriate community prior to 1973, just as many non-EU countries have them today. Property ownership rules might change; fair enough. The whole referendum question is a balance between the benefits of membership versus the costs. My basic objection to the EU is on grounds of democracy and sovereignty. Such things cannot be valued against the cost of having a Spanish mortgage.

As for UK/France border arrangements, well yes, I know it as definitely as it is possible to know anything (including the continuance of the arrangements in the long term, even if Britain remains in the EU). As I said earlier, these are bilateral arrangements, unconnected with the EU. There is no reason in law or logic for them to change and, frankly, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate otherwise.

Regarding exports, well an immediate 7pc drop is a far bigger deal than you are portraying it to be. And yes, when we're talking figures this large, I see no problem rounding to the nearest 5. I note you didn't object to me rounding up the UK's export figure in the same sentence, by a somewhat larger amount.

Regarding food hygiene rules, well you might be confident there are no rats in my kitchen if the rules were effective. Unfortunately, economic reality means I personally am only going to be visited once every five years or so, as I am small and therefor a low priority. The local authority has to visit all these places, incurring the costs as they go, yet each individual premises is inspected so infrequently as to make the whole process worthless. In practice, dirty kitchens are uncovered the same way they always were, by zeroing in on clusters of food poisoning after the fact. The difference now, however, is that the council has wasted a lot of money on pointless inspections in the meantime.

Regarding negotiating times: the period is set out in the Treaty of Lisbon and is 2 years.

The terms of any future deal will be no worse than WTO rules and will be at least as good as those enjoyed by Canada, Norway or Switzerland. I know precedent is awkward for Remainers, but it exists nevertheless.

Regarding immigration: what an absurd assertion to make. Immediate suspension of the right of any EU citizen to settle in the UK and take a job is a pretty fundamental change to the UK's ability to police its borders and manage its workforce. It is plain daft to claim none of these powers would be used as the economy required.

So how many Brits lived in Spain prior to 1973?

I think a vastly overlooked fact is that there are as many British citizens living in Europe as there are non British European Citizens living in the UK.

Interesting comments about WTO. Norway pays as much into the EU as we do (actually more) but has to put up with a lot of the rules we have opted out of. Simiarly Switzerland. Think there is much written about this elsewhere.

But just for info, so that we can aspire, these are the European Countries that are not in the EU and the current agreement that they have with the EU.

EEA countries - not in the EU but in Schengen:
Switzerland (Technically also not in the EEA, but is for most practical purposes, and is in Schengen)
Liechtenstein
Norway
Iceland

Micronations not technically in the EU but have monetary agreement with the EU and open borders:
Monaco
Andorra
San Marino
Vatican City

Central European Free Trade Agreement:
Kosovo
Serbia
Albania
Montenegro
Macedonia
Bosnia & Herzegovena
Moldova (also in GUAM, see below)

GUAM Organization for Democracy and Economic Development
Georgia
Ukraine

The negotiating time you mention is to the time frame for coming out of the EU not for negotiating a new trade agreement.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Chris

I'm saying that the British public should elect their governments, and thereafter they deserve whatever their government gives them.

The presupposition in your position is that the British government is somehow not competent and requires to be overruled.

As a British citizen and a democrat, who recognises the right of the Government to govern, even when it is run by a party I did not choose, I find your position mildly offensive.

Yes it's odd how a lot of people love to moan about our governments whilst at least having the power to overturn them (or secure mid term changes in policy) on a regular basis, whilst at the same time supporting the imposition of laws, rules and regulations from Eurolalaland which they can do nothing about. Presumably they're so entirely confident that everything which ever emanates from Brussels will be good for them and the UK (as opposed to countless other nations with conflicting interests) that they won't want to vote anyone out... How's that for nuts?