More cuts from failing Osborne

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by tweedle

Only a fool would think all lefties are "Tea Leafs" just like only a fool would think all righties are "nasty an selfish" I am sure you will agree.

No, not all 'righties' are nasty and selfish, I'm sure there are exceptions, somewhere
Anyway, I think we're getting away from George's incompetence. 6 years in the job, still cutting, little sign of growth or wage rises and we're on the brink of another downturn. Everyone, including his own party is sick of him. Continually targetting the disabled is reaching a new low. To repeat, this isn't to save money to square his dodgy books, its for a money give away to those that don't need it and who it will make little difference to. This isn't the time to be cutting taxes, he's putting his own PM ambitions before the good of the country.

Originally Posted by Taf

Not free, the entire Mobility component of DLA/PIP is used to pay for it. And that's usually just a basic car. If you want something more expensive, or modified for your use you have to pay the difference

So basically people on the higher rate of disability get money to live on and then get enough extra money to afford a car ,a new car that is renewed every 3 yrs .I don't suppose you can see anything wrong with that system ?

---------- Post added at 08:26 ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

You're not really being 'punished' though are you? You're paying what's reasonable given your above average ( yes £31k is way above) income, as I presume you're a civilsed
person who wants the vulnerable protected. Its the disabled being punished. This money is for things like basic toilet and dressing needs. George is raiding this so so called 'middle/daily mail' earners can have a few extra Euros holiday money.

Of course i want the vulnerable protected but not to the detriment of another class of society .For years Labour used the working man as a cash cow until in the end it simply was not worth some people going to work at all .We ended up with a ridiculous system (tax credits) that rewarded people for working less hours ,this has to stop .

---------- Post added at 08:30 ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 ----------

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Mr K, I think he is one of those who want a communist tax system to fit a capitalism wage system. He will never be convinced otherwise.

No i want a fairer system that rewards those that make it possible for vulnerable people to have some kind of quality of life .Creating hardship or unfairness for those who pay the most in taxes will only split society more than Labour did

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by tweedle

Personal attacks are typical left wing tactics

From you, this wins the Nobel Prize in Hypocrisy

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Tweedle its the law of the land that if you in a privileged position to earn more then you contribute more in taxes.
.

This is the problem in a nutshell .You seem to have the idea that working for a living is a privilege ,we live in a society that ,thanks to Labours ineptitude,thinks that having a job and being able to support ourselves is a privilege.

---------- Post added at 08:57 ---------- Previous post was at 08:37 ----------

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

they admitted PIP been introduced was to cut costs, that was its intended purpose

Of course it was ,i pretty sure saving money is part of the reasoning behind all the cuts ,that has never been a secret .The problem is that some members of society such as yourself see nothing wrong with spending increasing billions on largely unproductive members of that society .
It's probably a good time to mention that Dame Anne Begg ,former Labour MP and chairwoman of the work and pensions committee thinks the plan is "sensible"

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I see your point but we really should avoid quoting numbers regarding our respective tax bills.

----

FWIW I have no issues with the taxes I pay but would prefer our welfare system to be far more contributory, and for our taxation system to be dramatically simplified and have the anomalies and various 'humps' in the progressive rates removed. Contribution based would get shot of at least some of the issues of generations of families living off welfare.

I'm very unhappy with the level of cuts being handed down by the government. It is doing some hideous things to my local area.

I dislike how much taxation in the UK is skewed to income rather than wealth, we should be taxing unproductive activities, not productive and gainful employment, more.

Tempted as I am to go through the past couple of pages and pick holes in contradictions and frankly extreme statements made I'll pass.

If all this makes me some 'socialist' who wants to steal other people's income and redistribute it so be it. I don't want a pay as you go state, I want a fair and reasonable one at both ends of the income scale. Increased equality can actually have a dramatic effect on the vast majority of incomes and outcomes.

I also agree with this approach to taxation. The problem we have is that too many of the voting population would not agree with you.

Since the early 80's, people have been conditioned to think all taxation is "bad" and any wealth you may accrue, by whatever means, is yours and only yours. The concept of "earning" wealth is so devalued: if you can make money, by whatever means, then this is considered earnings when, in the wider scheme of things, these monies may just be generated through luck, position or privilege.

If you asked most people: "would you be willing to pay more tax to provide more social services, better long term infrastructure, etc.", the answer would be a significant majority "No".

If you asked: "Is the current wealth disparity a good thing for society in the long term", you would also probably get a "Yes".

Contrast the same questions in the Scandinavian countries where the opposite would be true. I believe we now live a basically selfish society here in the UK, me above us and what is mine stays mine .. at all costs.

Cameron's cuts are closing children centres .. no one commented or cared. I know most of you voted for Cameron so answer me this: when the current cuts and the new ones pending from the new Budget start to roll out, what will it take before you realise this has gone too far? When you are directly affected, when your relatives are affected? Where is the red line here?

Of course, saying things like this will not lead to meaningful debate, just "lefty" remarks but it still needs to be said ..

Originally Posted by ianch99

I also agree with this approach to taxation. The problem we have is that too many of the voting population would not agree with you.

Since the early 80's, people have been conditioned to think all taxation is "bad" and any wealth you may accrue, by whatever means, is yours and only yours. The concept of "earning" wealth is so devalued: if you can make money, by whatever means, then this is considered earnings when, in the wider scheme of things, these monies may just be generated through luck, position or privilege.

If you asked most people: "would you be willing to pay more tax to provide more social services, better long term infrastructure, etc.", the answer would be a significant majority "No".

If you asked: "Is the current wealth disparity a good thing for society in the long term", you would also probably get a "Yes".

Contrast the same questions in the Scandinavian countries where the opposite would be true. I believe we now live a basically selfish society here in the UK, me above us and what is mine stays mine .. at all costs.

Cameron's cuts are closing children centres .. no one commented or cared. I know most of you voted for Cameron so answer me this: when the current cuts and the new ones pending from the new Budget start to roll out, what will it take before you realise this has gone too far? When you are directly affected, when your relatives are affected? Where is the red line here?

Of course, saying things like this will not lead to meaningful debate, just "lefty" remarks but it still needs to be said ..

Problem is that most of those "childrens centers" where opened under a Labour government using money we did not have ,a policy that Labour has now said was wrong ,indeed John McDonnell(shadow chancellor) said only yesterday that Labour needs to regain the public trust on it's spending policies ,he says that safeguards must be put in place to stop any future Labour government overspending .

Since the early 80's, people have been conditioned to think all taxation is "bad" and any wealth you may accrue, by whatever means, is yours and only yours.

Simple answer to that is because in 1979 the standard income tax rate under the then Labour government was 33% and the higher rate was 80% ,we had at the time some of the most punitive tax rates in the world

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by martyh

Problem is that most of those "childrens centers" where opened under a Labour government using money we did not have ,a policy that Labour has now said was wrong ,indeed John McDonnell(shadow chancellor) said only yesterday that Labour needs to regain the public trust on it's spending policies ,he says that safeguards must be put in place to stop any future Labour government overspending

Ok, you are happy for children centres to go because they were created by Labour. What about services that Labour did not instigate?

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Simple answer to that is because in 1979 the standard income tax rate under the then Labour government was 33% and the higher rate was 80% ,we had at the time some of the most punitive tax rates in the world

This is not an answer for the problems today. This was 38 years ago, almost two generations ..

---------- Post added at 10:52 ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Problem is that most of those "childrens centers" where opened under a Labour government using money we did not have ,a policy that Labour has now said was wrong ,indeed John McDonnell(shadow chancellor) said only yesterday that Labour needs to regain the public trust on it's spending policies ,he says that safeguards must be put in place to stop any future Labour government overspending

from: https://www.gov.uk/government/speech...lgg-conference

As we start 2012, one area right at the top of our agenda - mine, my Department’s and, hopefully, yours - is policy around young people.

Non ring-fenced funding of £2.365 billion in 2012-13 will help Local Authorities to provide Early Intervention services for vulnerable children, young people and families. And for the particular needs of young people and their families, Local Authorities can also draw on the Revenue Support Grant and, from 2013, the Public Health Grant

Quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim Loughton, at the time Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children and Families ..

[tweedle]

Nicola Sturgeon on Sunday politics saying Scotland will deal with their deficit the same way the rest of the U.K. has dealt with theirs. So basically admitting cuts will be needed.

When the point was put forward to balance the books Scotland would have to either raise taxes by 16% or make cuts of 14% of spending. She had nothing to say.......

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by tweedle

Nicola Sturgeon on Sunday politics saying Scotland will deal with their deficit the same way the rest of the U.K. has dealt with theirs. So basically admitting cuts will be needed.

When the point was put forward to balance the books Scotland would have to either raise taxes by 16% or make cuts of 14% of spending. She had nothing to say.......

We;; after yesterdays announcements by her about increased NHS funds and giving families on low income and youg children more money, I would love to know where this is all going to come from!

[tweedle]

Originally Posted by Stephen

We;; after yesterdays announcements by her about increased NHS funds and giving families on low income and youg children more money, I would love to know where this is all going to come from!

It's going to be coming from your wage packet, and silly amounts of borrowing.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by martyh

So basically people on the higher rate of disability get money to live on and then get enough extra money to afford a car ,a new car that is renewed every 3 yrs .I don't suppose you can see anything wrong with that system ?[COLOR="Silver"]

DLA is paid is 2 parts: Care and Mobility. Only those with the highest Mobility payment qualify for Motability access, and getting that level is hard to get and is getting much harder. They can use the money to pay for other transport costs (often taxis) or the option of a new lease car or a used car (both of which may require modification at own cost). The restrictions on the lease car are getting tighter and tighter (limited mileage, and fines for the condition of the car falling below 100%... every little dink and scratch must be repaired). The old 3 wheel mobility scooters disappeared as they were considered too dangerous. Many rely on adapted vehicles to get to places of work or education, as public transport is either impossible to use or doesn't exist. And of that number, more and more are being denied the Higher Mobility component therefore having a severe barrier against them integrating with society.

[techguyone]

Taf you're wasting your time pal, sadly IDS & conservatism is general has done a really good job of demonising all aspects of JSA/ESA/DSA so now everyone just considers people in those categories pond ****, add that all this nonsense about all of these people having 50 inch TV's £150 trainers, brand new BMW's etc and there's a nice handy societal scapegoat for everyone to focus on whilst darker stuff goes by unnoticed.

[tweedle]

Originally Posted by techguyone

Taf you're wasting your time pal, sadly IDS & conservatism is general has done a really good job of demonising all aspects of JSA/ESA/DSA so now everyone just considers people in those categories pond ****, add that all this nonsense about all of these people having 50 inch TV's £150 trainers, brand new BMW's etc and there's a nice handy societal scapegoat for everyone to focus on whilst darker stuff goes by unnoticed.

I'm afraid you're 100% wrong, no one likes the cuts but if the gravey boat is empty then cuts are going to happen. How would you deal with the current situation.

Instead of cuts what is your answer? I give plenty to the needy via my taxes but there is no room left for me to give more from my pay packet I'm afraid. All the people you declare as uncaring are the ones paying to help the needy an they pay every week, week in week out without complaint. But we have given all we can I'm sorry to say.

An by the way telling workers they are selfish uncaring nasty right wing haters has lost its effect. You've used it a little too often. We care we help, we try our best, but there is nothing left to give.

But feel free to march on London , **** up banks and throw paint at government buildings. You won't change anything.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by tweedle

I'm sorry but you are one of the people responsable for the cuts, you knowingly and willingly stole from a system already under strain.

I ask again, what year did you defraud the benefits system, what was your hourly wage, how many hours did you work? Claiming to be broke whilst you actually had a wage coming in is upsetting to the genuine claimants.

You genuinely don't seem to understand the money you stole may of saved a life, helped a genuine needy person, funded a project to help the poorest in society.

How much of a low life are you? I pay as much as £250 in a single week in tax, an my wife more some weeks. An you tell us we should pay more whilst you steal money from the needy? You really help the case for the lefties.

This was over 10 years ago and I learnt the error of my ways, at least I am honest.

If you paying £250 a week in tax then it also means you taking home a fair chunk of change. Which raises the question why you have no room for higher taxes, suggesting you living above your means or not telling the whole truth, taxes as far as income goes are at a very low level compared to historical averages.

Are you trying to tell me you think someone on 10k a year paying no income tax is better off than someone on 50k a year paying higher levels of tax?

Also well done to ignition, someone who is on a decent salary been happy to pay more tax so the system doesnt collapse around us.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Ok, you are happy for children centres to go because they were created by Labour. What about services that Labour did not instigate?

Of course that is exactly what i said
I would have been happy for Labour to have given some thought as to how all the giveaways and freebies they introduced to ensure 13yrs of power where going to be paid for ,sadly that wasn't the case so now it all has to be paid for all you labour luvvies are crying because any future government including a Labour one will have to take most it away

This is not an answer for the problems today. This was 38 years ago, almost two generations .

It is a reason why most people do not trust Labour with the economy .After the '70's disaster they where given another chance and made exactly the same mess again the only difference now is that some Labour MP's realize they cannot be trusted with the economy.