[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Then again he is looking at from a selfish point of view. Why should it not be good for science? When it's all said and done the UK loses money by being in the EU anyway to the tune of at least £8 bn per year.

Also they make a lot of our laws we have no say in but have to abide by.

They tell us we have to take their Citizens but we don't always have the room for them. We'd be in a better position to help the Syrian refugees outside the EU because we can cut back on the amount of EU Citizens we allow in.

Our NHS would benefit greatly from the money we save by not being in the EU.

Our economy is the 5th largest and can cope with trading with the emerging economies as well as the US and the EU.

It's probably the unknown people are afraid of but who said life was easy? Sure there may be some hiccups but they are not going to be as bad as Cameron said yesterday. One of the big 4 banks, according to someone I was talking to the other day online, said his boss doesn't think things will be that bad and they have no plans to relocate in the event of a Brexit.

Thanks for the Welcome

I don't know anyone who's looking at this issue on the basis that Out will result in Nirvana. Most folks I talk to cite fundamental issues like sovereignty, immigration, ever closer union, expansionism, interference in our laws and flawed economic policy as the reasons they want out and I agree. Being wedded to the EU is like being stuck with an unreasonable and irrational partner - frankly we'd be far better off suffering the pain of gwhat might be a messy divorce, moving on and learning from the mistake.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Osem

I don't know anyone who's looking at this issue on the basis that Out will result in Nirvana. Most folks I talk to cite fundamental issues like sovereignty, immigration, ever closer union, expansionism, interference in our laws and flawed economic policy as the reasons they want out and I agree. Being wedded to the EU is like being stuck with an unreasonable and irrational partner - frankly we'd be far better off suffering the pain of gwhat might be a messy divorce, moving on and learning from the mistake.

There's another Issue then LOL. Vote Leave

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Stephen Hawking doesn't think leaving is a good idea either. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-35772714

welcome anyway !

I cannot say that Stephen Hawking's opinion in this matter influences mine. I'm more than happy to take his counsel on a number of topics, he's way more intelligent than I am and far better read, but politics being as subjective as it often is isn't one of them.

[Big Brian]

More from the out campaign

Britain could negotiate an "amicable divorce", but retain strong trading links with EU nations.

Some potential models:
◾ The Norwegian model: Britain leaves the EU and joins the European Economic Area, giving it access to the single market, with the exception of some financial services, but freeing it from EU rules on agriculture, fisheries, justice and home affairs
◾ The Swiss model: Britain emulates Switzerland, which is not a member of the EU but negotiates trade treaties on a sector-by-sector basis
◾ The Turkish model: The UK could enter into a customs union with the EU, allowing access to the free market in manufactured goods but not financial services

Then there is Canada. Cameron said today that it took them 8 years to negotiate with the EU. This is true but then again, they weren't leaving the EU. Britain could negotiate faster as we already have agreements in place, some of which would remain.

Canada's agreement doesn't cover financial services though. Not an ideal model either. The BBC has some info on their deal here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-po...0000a2490a1b7e

Basically it's lopsided in the EU's favour.

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by Damien

Canada's agreement doesn't cover financial services though. Not an ideal model either. The BBC has some info on their deal here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-po...0000a2490a1b7e

Basically it's lopsided in the EU's favour.

Of that I'm sure. There is the alternative of none of those and negotiate our own agreement.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

Of that I'm sure. There is the alternative of none of those and negotiate our own agreement.

I think that's the more realistic scenario. Emulating failed models are a no no. We are the fifth biggest economy on the planet. That means we call the shots in most negotiations.

BTW to the forum Big Brian.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

I think that's the more realistic scenario. Emulating failed models are a no no. We are the fifth biggest economy on the planet. That means we call the shots in most negotiations.:

The European Union as a block would be the biggest. Germany is the 4th biggest economy in the world on it's own. France is sixth. The idea we would 'call the shots' with the EU is unrealistic.

[tweedle]

Originally Posted by Damien

The European Union as a block would be the biggest. Germany is the 4th biggest economy in the world on it's own. France is sixth. The idea we would 'call the shots' with the EU is unrealistic.

We don't need to call the shots, since joining the EU we have not once called the shots, so why would we want to if we left? Infact EVERYTIME we tried to call the shots we failed and were ignored. We could tell European company's they can't sell to the 70 million British if we wanted to. Or we could make trading very difficult for them.

We have more European workers than we have unemployed. So if all EU workers went home then the UK would have zero unemployed.

---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:24 ----------

Britian is safe in the hands of the british,

[Ramrod]

Well said Brian.....and welcome

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Big Brian

More from the out campaign

Britain could negotiate an "amicable divorce", but retain strong trading links with EU nations.

Some potential models:
◾ The Norwegian model: Britain leaves the EU and joins the European Economic Area, giving it access to the single market, with the exception of some financial services, but freeing it from EU rules on agriculture, fisheries, justice and home affairs
◾ The Swiss model: Britain emulates Switzerland, which is not a member of the EU but negotiates trade treaties on a sector-by-sector basis
◾ The Turkish model: The UK could enter into a customs union with the EU, allowing access to the free market in manufactured goods but not financial services

Then there is Canada. Cameron said today that it took them 8 years to negotiate with the EU. This is true but then again, they weren't leaving the EU. Britain could negotiate faster as we already have agreements in place, some of which would remain.

It's in the Lisbon treaty that there is a two year negotiation period after a country votes to leave for all agreements to be reached. I really wouldn't bother looking at other countries treaties either, we'd be incredibly lucky to get one as good as Switzerland and incredibly unlucky to get one as bad as Norway's, best bet is to hope we start from scratch and get something amicable for both sides

Welcome btw

[Big Brian]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

It's in the Lisbon treaty that there is a two year negotiation period after a country votes to leave for all agreements to be reached. I really wouldn't bother looking at other countries treaties either, we'd be incredibly lucky to get one as good as Switzerland and incredibly unlucky to get one as bad as Norway's, best bet is to hope we start from scratch and get something amicable for both sides

Welcome btw

Ty for the worm welcome everyone.

Indeed you are correct. We have the advantage that we already trade with the EU. We export 3 times as much to them as they do to us and do people really believe that the EU would completely turn their backs on the UK? I can't see it happening. The reason we export 3 times more than they do to us is we have what they need. Even if that was cut to 30% it would still be a good deal - it's currently around 45% we export to the EU.

In our case, we would be renegotiating our trade agreement not trying to get one with the EU. They are not going to cut off their collective noses to spite their faces.

Other issues like the scaremonger story that the Jungle would move from Calais to Dover is nonsense. That agreement France and the UK have is nothing to do with the EU, it's a private agreement between us and they have already said that agreement still holds if we leave despite what Allonde and Cameron say.

Defence: Does anyone really believe that if we left the EU and the Russians decided to attack us that the USA would allow it? This is another scare story going round from the IN Campaign.

Jobs: Another scare story is that the UK would lose tens of thousands of jobs if we vote to leave the EU. Over the past few weeks all I've seen is the opposite. HSBC decided not to relocate knowing that a Brexit is possible. Amazon are creating a thousand jobs in the Manchester area with plans for more jobs knowing that a Brexit is possible. Where do they get this from?. Sure some firms may relocate but I don't think they will take the jobs with them. As in the case of the threats in the Scottish referendum, it would be the HQ relocating. It will be a safety net in case things go belly up.

Originally Posted by tweedle

We don't need to call the shots, since joining the EU we have not once called the shots, so why would we want to if we left? Infact EVERYTIME we tried to call the shots we failed and were ignored. We could tell European company's they can't sell to the 70 million British if we wanted to. Or we could make trading very difficult for them.

We have more European workers than we have unemployed. So if all EU workers went home then the UK would have zero unemployed.,[/QUOTE]

I am not supporting the side that is pretending we can unilaterally call the shots. Britain is going to find imperfect trade deals, compromises and the inability to get every we want inside or outside the EU. The question is can we have as clout or get a better trade deal out of the EU. I don't think we can and the idea that the fact we're the '5th largest economy' will have little difference when you're dealing with a trading block that will be far bigger.

We have more European workers than we have unemployed. So if all EU workers went home then the UK would have zero unemployed.,

Another Brexit fantasy. You need to the qualified to do many jobs. One of the examples I gave a few pages back is the Tech Industry in London. They'll take as many IT and mathematics graduates as they can get their hands on and recruit across Europe to do so. It's not for want of trying that they have to go to Europe rather than Britain-Only.

[Big Brian]

We have more European workers than we have unemployed.

Where on earth did you get that from? If you take those the Government exclude from the unemployment figures, which is more than their current unemployment figures, you'll find that the true unemployment figure is closer to 5 million rather than 2 million. How many EU workers are there in the UK exactly? Yes it is a fallacy.

[papa smurf]

Government officials 'hid stats proving there are a MILLION extra EU migrants in Britain'

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/651...er-david-davis