[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Originally Posted by ianch99

Here's an interesting conundrum: if you voted Tory at the last election, I presume you voted for and support George Osbourne's economic competence and and you agree that he knows what he is doing when it comes to the country's finances. Let's face it, if you don't agree that he knows what he is doing then ... let's not go there ..

So, we agree that George is knowledgeable and competent in running the economy and is trusted to make decisions on the near future economic outlook.

Ok, so why would you not trust him when he says here:



You sort of can't have it both ways: either he is trusted to run the country's economy and you then have to trust him when he says what he says or he isn't trusted on economic matters then in which case why is he Chancellor? ..

That, my friend, is what you call a false dilemma.

Nothing is black and white; everything is shades of grey. And a general election isn't fanbois v hat3rz, (or at least it shouldn't be), it's about who is more or less competent than who.

I trust Cameron and Osborne more than I could trust Miliband and Balls. That's not to say I'm a deaf-blind cheerleader for everything the Tory boys say and do.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Anonymouse

I'd like to know when Cameron's going to remember that it is not his place to decide if the UK stays in - that's our call, or it damn well should be!

Of course it's your choice, as long as you make the right choice. Otherwise, fear not, you'll be given another chance to vote the right way

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

That, my friend, is what you call a false dilemma.

Nothing is black and white; everything is shades of grey. And a general election isn't fanbois v hat3rz, (or at least it shouldn't be), it's about who is more or less competent than who.

I trust Cameron and Osborne more than I could trust Miliband and Balls. That's not to say I'm a deaf-blind cheerleader for everything the Tory boys say and do.

Ah I see, you just trusted Miliband and Balls less than Cameron and Osborne. Worrying basis for giving a mandate to re-engineer the economy

Anyway, my assertion remains: *if* you trust George to run the economy which I assume a lot of Conservative voters do then by inference, you should trust his judgement on the EU.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Ah I see, you just trusted Miliband and Balls less than Cameron and Osborne. Worrying basis for giving a mandate to re-engineer the economy

Anyway, my assertion remains: *if* you trust George to run the economy which I assume a lot of Conservative voters do then by inference, you should trust his judgement on the EU.

Your assertion is still false.

I'm not sure why you think it is problematic to weigh two options against each other, then to choose one over the other without believing your choice to be absolutely perfect. The analogies with everyday life are too numerous to list.

[Osem]

Quite. I'd rather choose the lesser of 2 evils...

If the main parties are wanting to stay in then a general election vote can't realistically be about determining the outcome of a referendum on EU membership, it can only be a choice based on other matters. What I know is that the Tories promised and delivered a referendum which is a damned sight more than Bliar did.

Originally Posted by Osem

Brexit doesn't have to result in chaos but there's no doubt that could be the result if the powers that be decide to let that happen. They're in charge, they can negotiate new deals if they want to and if we're really saying that's impossible, I reckon that's an admission that the EU is fundamentally flawed.

No one is saying we won't get new trade deals. It's the length of time they take and the conditions they will apply. People seem to think that trade deal is simply both countries agreeing not to apply tariffs to trade between those countries but it's a lot more. For example what if the EU don't want financial services to be covered in any trade deal? Maybe Paris and Frankfurt fancy improving their banking sector.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

Your assertion is still false.

I'm not sure why you think it is problematic to weigh two options against each other, then to choose one over the other without believing your choice to be absolutely perfect. The analogies with everyday life are too numerous to list.

Forget the election, my point is that if you trust George to run the country then you should trust his judgement on the economic disadvantages on Brexit.

But hey, if you don't trust George's economic judgement then there is not a problem

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by pip08456

German cars, French wine and cheese will ensure a deal is quickly made if we exit the EU.

Those two are the leaders of the EU and cannot afford not to trade with us. Trade with them alone is worth billions to their economies.

I don't think they are that rational, paranoia and ego are the emotions that run the EU, besides I don't think there is a rush to do the deal you've got a 2 year period of negotiations where things carry on pretty much the same according to article 50 of the Lisbon treaty iirc that is iirc of course

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Damien

No one is saying we won't get new trade deals. It's the length of time they take and the conditions they will apply. People seem to think that trade deal is simply both countries agreeing not to apply tariffs to trade between those countries but it's a lot more. For example what if the EU don't want financial services to be covered in any trade deal? Maybe Paris and Frankfurt fancy improving their banking sector.

Well as I pointed out, if all parties want it to happen promptly in the common interest it will. If they don't well it'll be worse for everyone whether that's between us and the EU or anywhere else. We don't need to negotiate major deal with every EU member either, we can happily concentrate on those with which we're doing the most business and where there's most scope.

As for financial services - anyone who thinks staying in the EU is in any way a guarantee of London's security is living in cloud cuckoo land. Paris and Frankfurt will only seek to undermine the City and if we remain in we'll be able to do nothing about it. If we're outside, the City will be able to set its own rules and be as competitive and responsive to market trends as it wants.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Here's an interesting conundrum: if you voted Tory at the last election, I presume you voted for and support George Osbourne's economic competence and and you agree that he knows what he is doing when it comes to the country's finances.

Personally, I only voted for this shower 'cos
A) I distrusted Labour even more
B) This lot promised us a referendum, labour didn't

[denphone]

l distrust the bloody lot of them as they say one thing and do the opposite but what else can you expect from politicians who have become experts at obfuscating and lying to the public.

Originally Posted by ianch99

Here's an interesting conundrum: if you voted Tory at the last election, I presume you voted for and support George Osbourne's economic competence and and you agree that he knows what he is doing when it comes to the country's finances. Let's face it, if you don't agree that he knows what he is doing then ... let's not go there ..

So, we agree that George is knowledgeable and competent in running the economy and is trusted to make decisions on the near future economic outlook.

Ok, so why would you not trust him when he says here:



You sort of can't have it both ways: either he is trusted to run the country's economy and you then have to trust him when he says what he says or he isn't trusted on economic matters then in which case why is he Chancellor? ..

Warning - false dilemma alert!!

Artificial conflation of two different scenarios to create unanswerable question....

At the time of the election, enough voters agreed with his general approach, which does not mean agreeing with every specific, especially future unforeseen scenarios.

According to your proposition, anyone who voted Labour in the last election shouldn't have voted for Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour leadership, as Jeremy wasn't part of the Party Leadership at the time...

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Chris

That, my friend, is what you call a false dilemma.

Nothing is black and white; everything is shades of grey. And a general election isn't fanbois v hat3rz, (or at least it shouldn't be), it's about who is more or less competent than who.

I trust Cameron and Osborne more than I could trust Miliband and Balls. That's not to say I'm a deaf-blind cheerleader for everything the Tory boys say and do.

What he said.

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

Anyway, my assertion remains: *if* you trust George to run the economy which I assume a lot of Conservative voters do then by inference, you should trust his judgement on the EU.

I trust my mechanic to fix my car, and I listen to his " opinion" on Europe and may or may not vote the same way he does.

---------- Post added at 19:31 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

Forget the election, my point is that if you trust George to run the country then you should trust his judgement on the economic disadvantages on Brexit.

But hey, if you don't trust George's economic judgement then there is not a problem

The two are not mutually exclusive

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Personally, I only voted for this shower 'cos
A) I distrusted Labour even more
B) This lot promised us a referendum, labour didn't

IIRC Labour did promise one but it turns out Bliar lied about that too. Quelle surprise...

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Warning - false dilemma alert!!

Artificial conflation of two different scenarios to create unanswerable question....

At the time of the election, enough voters agreed with his general approach, which does not mean agreeing with every specific, especially future unforeseen scenarios.

According to your proposition, anyone who voted Labour in the last election shouldn't have voted for Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour leadership, as Jeremy wasn't part of the Party Leadership at the time...

Did you not read my post where I said "Forget the election" .. I guess not I see this as an easy proposition: if you trust the guy to run the economy and this same guy says "don't leave" then maybe you should listen?

---------- Post added at 20:24 ---------- Previous post was at 20:21 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

I trust my mechanic to fix my car, and I listen to his " opinion" on Europe and may or may not vote the same way he does

The two are not mutually exclusive

You wouldn't ask George to mend your car either so you need compare apples with apples.

So you don't trust his judgement on the economy in relation to the EU so why trust it in relation to other aspects of the economy?