[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Originally Posted by Osem

Lots of City institutions are very concerned about French and German efforts to undermine the financial sector and impose transaction taxes etc. which will make London less competitive.

It's up to him to decide what he stands for isn't it and presumably for those who selected him to have thought about it. If it turns out he's simply calculated wrongly that it'll boost his popularity then that's his tough luck. On the other hand, if he's only now decided (on the basis of the deal Cameron has only just secured) to get out that's fair enough by me. I don't see why any prospective Mayor of London shouldn't be entitled to their own view on this.

I didn't say he wasn't entitled to this own view. It's just that it's a 'brave' - in the Yes Minister sense - thing for him to do. Much like Corbyn is entitled to believe in what he has said - doesn't mean it's political wise.

[Osem]

Well yes, whether it's politically wise remains to be seen but in any event I much prefer people who behave with conviction* to those who cynically jump from one bandwagon to another according to what they feel suits their own interests best.

* whilst reserving the right to lambast them as appropriate where they're clearly delusional or just plain stupid...

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Nope, just trying to be devil's advocate to the majority on here who scream "leave" yet offer no reasons as to why.

Boris gives a well written set of reasons here

[ianch99]

Why is the Johnson thing such a big deal? Given his role in national politics, the reaction seem disproportionate. He has always come across as a bit of clown ... What has Boris got on Cameron

[Kymmy]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Boris gives a well written set of reasons here

Yep, but published 7+ hours after I asked.. Any more?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Kymmy

Yep, but published 7+ hours after I asked.. Any more?

CF clearly reaches the parts other forums can't reach...

Good breakdown of three possible consequences of Brexit. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d...#axzz40tQoBlqs

They do point out the absurdity of the same of the claims people make about free trade deals as if they're symmetrical and easy to set up. They're not.

Originally Posted by Damien

Good breakdown of three possible consequences of Brexit. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/70d0bfd8-d...#axzz40tQoBlqs

They do point out the absurdity of the same of the claims people make about free trade deals as if they're symmetrical and easy to set up. They're not.

Really good article, I thought, with the pro & con of various scenarios.

The bit I found most interesting was

Finally, to prevent disruption to the trade flows on which the British economy has come to depend, the country must negotiate agreements with the EU and with non-EU countries including the US, India, China, Japan and Australia. This would be a matter of urgency: in 2014 just over half Britain’s trade was with the EU, while sales to and from 60 other countries are governed by agreements struck with the bloc.

The challenge that the undecided (in which I include myself) is knowing the complexity and impact of re-negotiating these trade deals, as no one on either side really knows how difficult/beneficial these negotiations will be - Brexit supporters will see to minimise the difficulty of these, whilst the StayInners will exaggerate them, and the truth is, no one knows, as it's never been done on this scale before...

[Osem]

I've an idea - why don't we ask the EU if we can suck it and see?

Uncharted waters as I said. No certainties v. the certainty we do have which is more of the same.

Originally Posted by Hugh

The challenge that the undecided (in which I include myself) is knowing the complexity and impact of re-negotiating these trade deals, as no one on either side really knows how difficult/beneficial these negotiations will be - Brexit supporters will see to minimise the difficulty of these, whilst the StayInners will exaggerate them, and the truth is, no one knows, as it's never been done on this scale before...

Yeah. I think we'll be able to renegotiate trade deals with this countries but it's the terms we'll get and the time it'll take that is the issue and nobody knows as you say. We won't have to worry about seeking protections for industries that aren't our concern, which is an advantage, but we'll have less clout in terms of out accessible market, which is a disadvantage.

I find it hard to believe there won't be at least a few years of turbulence though as we get seek to get these deals done, get a deal with the EU done and businesses are cautious about investment here whilst those issues are unresolved.

I saw someone mention earlier today that Greenland did a deal with China but it involved one industry, fishing, and it took three years.

[Mr K]

tbh, I had time for Boris as a laughable clown 'not nasty Tory' sort of guy. He's now come out as the worst sort of politician, seeing which way the wind is blowing for his own benefit before deciding which side he's on. I guess the scenario he's hoping for is that the public don't actually do anything stupid like vote 'out'; a disgruntled Tory grassroots will then elect him and punish Osborne/Cameron, and he still have EU membership.

Be nice if the actual issues like free trade were debated; however it's just going be negative from both sides, and about personalities/back stabbing/which way the media barons decide how we should vote. I despair of our democracy sometimes.

[ianch99]

I have just seen the intro for Channel 4 news and they had a clip of someone asking a couple of women from Liverpool (I think) and asking "What do you think of Boris Johnson's decision"?

"Boris who" they replied?

Also, when there was a vote on bombing Syria, the media were lampooning Corbyn for his cabinet's disunity. It is interesting that when Dave's cabinet does the same thing, this presents no problem ..

And if he didn't allow them the freedom to dissent, he would have been called a dictator...

Also he wouldn't have been able to contain his party and any spilt would have been far worse. I think the difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron has proved himself to the extent that no one can really call into question his authority within the party. He has largely kept infighting to a minimum, managed to impose the whip where needed, and has only called for a free vote on issues of long-standing disagreement within the party such as gay marriage and Europe.

Corbyn finds his party in a permanent state of dissent and has been bounced into free votes though lack of authority. The Conservative party, even with the spilt, is largely behind Cameron. Most of the PLP hate Corbyn.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I seriously think that if Cameron, had got a better deal. Then we would not be discussing this matter.

In or out of the EU, l still feel that we will still trade abroad. Its utter nonsense to suggest major companies will move abroad.

hey move aboard as it is cheaper to recruit staff. Now, isn't that what Britain is doing at the moment.

IF, we are out, then we can control our own borders. and we wont need to have Brussels, telling US, what we can or cannot do in our OWN country