[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

[heero_yuy]

The Prime Minister is trying to defend his reform proposals – which he says will make the country ‘stronger and better’.

But the small print of the draft deal reveals, instead of losing their child benefits, some overseas workers will receive even more.

Payments will be linked to the cost of living in an EU worker’s home country and, in some – like Switzerland, Norway and Iceland – this is higher than in Britain.

This means the bill for sending hand-outs to children in these countries will increase.

Ukip leader Nigel Farage told Mail Online: “It's hard to discern if Cameron's deal is a farce, a comedy or a tragedy.

“It would be outrageous if our taxpayers end up paying more money for children who live outside the UK than we do even now.”

Linky


It's unravelling now, this wonderful deal that Dave has secured.

[Osem]

I think a growing number of people have no faith whatsoever that the EU can be reformed. For me it's now simple - the vote is to either endure ever more of the same old Eurolalaland nonsense or just get out.

We'll need to find out how many children are actually in Switzerland as opposed to say Poland to know 'if it will cost more'. The payments will be index-linked to better match the country they're in.

[tweedle]

If this deal succeeds for every £350million Britain pays out in benefits it will save 99p. When it comes to abuse of the benefits system we need to look a little closer to home. These Europeans are not lieing and stealing from our system. They're paying taxes in and taking out what they're entitled to.

I read somewhere an example of a 27 year old Polish woman had paid more tax in the UK in 2 years than an entire family of British born benefit claiming citizens had paid in 50 years.

So immigrants are not the problem! It's mostly British families it seems where mom, dad and all kids Jump straight on benefits. Where you have kids that have never seen mom or dad go out to work, then you see immigrant families with both parents working hounded for claiming a little back, it's heart breaking.

[Osem]

Why we should be paying anyone for their children who're not living here is beyond me.

[tweedle]

Originally Posted by Osem

Why we should be paying anyone for their children who're not living here is beyond me.

Europe, that's why. Big UK businesses benefit from EU membership, wether or not that filters down to the man in the street I have no idea.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by tweedle

If this deal succeeds for every £350million Britain pays out in benefits it will save 99p. When it comes to abuse of the benefits system we need to look a little closer to home. These Europeans are not lieing and stealing from our system. They're paying taxes in and taking out what they're entitled to.

I read somewhere an example of a 27 year old Polish woman had paid more tax in the UK in 2 years than an entire family of British born benefit claiming citizens had paid in 50 years.

So immigrants are not the problem! It's mostly British families it seems where mom, dad and all kids Jump straight on benefits. Where you have kids that have never seen mom or dad go out to work, then you see immigrant families with both parents working hounded for claiming a little back, it's heart breaking.

European immigrants aren't the problem as far as welfare goes indeed. They have, and continue to, pay more in than they take out.

Some other immigrant groups are consuming a lot of resources but for whatever reason nothing is done beyond to continue welcoming them.

A more contributory welfare system across the board would be great.

[heero_yuy]

DAVID CAMERON was dealt a humiliating blow last night as a devastating poll revealed a record lead for the campaign to take Britain out of the EU.

In a damning verdict on the PM’s draft deal with the European Commission, 45 per cent of the public said they would now vote for a ‘Brexit’.

Only 36 per cent would vote to stay with the rest undecided.

The nine point lead for the ‘Out’ campaign is the biggest since YouGov started tracking the numbers.

Jubilant Eurosceptics said the results showed the public did not buy David Cameron’s “spin” on Tuesday – when he branded the proposed reforms on sovereignty, competitiveness and welfare a historic success.

YouGov last night said that only 22 per cent of voters believe the package of measures represented a good deal for Britain.

Twice as many — 45 per cent — said it didn’t go far enough.

Linky

Considering that any cabinet "big beasts" in the leave faction are still gagged whilst he's spouting wildly optimistic promises, he's not doing too well.

[Osem]

Better for them to keep their powder dry I reckon. Let the in campaign have the stage now and wait until nearer the time to expose to flaws in their proposition. Right now, the EU and its supporters are doing a great job of showing us just how fatally flawed the whole thing now is.

Originally Posted by Osem

Better for them to keep their powder dry I reckon. Let the in campaign have the stage now and wait until nearer the time to expose to flaws in their proposition. Right now, the EU and its supporters are doing a great job of showing us just how fatally flawed the whole thing now is.

Not to sound like a broken record but the Out campaign will need to come out with the alternative scenarios rather than just point out flaws. The flaws are there for all to see and have been for years. Cameron's 'deal' seems to have made things worse and the migration crisis might kick off in the Summer but aside from those two things the rest of it is 'baked in' i.e surely most people are aware of them and have decided if that matters enough or not.

[Osem]

I think most people have had reservations about the EU for years (I'd be one) but never felt strongly enough to do something more than moan because life was still pretty good in spite of what they were doing. Things have been steadily unravelling ever since the likes of the Greeks were helped to cook their books . People have had a good number of years in which to directly feel the effects of the EU's flawed policy and the extent to which the UK has been putting in far more than it's been getting out with very little influence amongst the old team of Germany and France who've been running the show to suit themselves for years. It's rather like the migration situation - people are often very generous until they start to see/feel the adverse effects on their daily lives.

It'd be great if we could have all the pros and cons spelled out in a clear, unbiased manner and then vote but I think after all these years most people believe that will never happen. The decision then boils down to whether dissatisfaction with what we've experienced at the hands of the EU and the rapidly worsening situation in Europe is sufficient to make getting out a no brainer on the basis that things could hardly be worse.

I think we're at the point where this decision is going to be made by a great many people on an emotional, intuitive, level and only time will allow us to make a judgement about which would have been the best option.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Osem

I think we're at the point where this decision is going to be made by a great many people on an emotional, intuitive, level and only time will allow us to make a judgement about which would have been the best option.

Agreed. Whilst in the EU the corner principle of freedom of movement within the EU can never be opposed and since the vast majority of those fleeing into Southern Europe are automatically being given leave to stay in the EU and thus benefit from that freedom to come and go as they please, many people in the UK will see that as a very negative aspect of EU membership and vote accordingly.

Cameron's watered down benefits cap/limit/brake or whatever it's called today is unlikely to affect how many will chose to come here as the majority of them are not coming for benefits but for the myriad of low paid jobs that big business is generating. To those without jobs from Eastern Europe or further away those jobs look well paid.

The resulting pressure to drive wages down to the bare minimum is affecting many families. Putting in place the living wage will partly offset that drive but it just makes the wages in the UK look even more attractive to migrants. Without an effective work permit system, that we can only properly implement after leaving the EU, they'll still come in their hundreds of thousands each year.

[Osem]

Martin Schultz surely is the epitome of the arrogant, blinkered, Eurocrats running the show. Can these people really be trusted?

David Cameron has insisted a finalised EU reform deal would be "irreversible" as the UK would have a veto.

He was speaking after the European Parliament President Martin Schulz told Sky News that everything could be reversed, including legally binding decisions.

His comments were likely to prove unhelpful to the Prime Minister as he sought to rally support for the proposed reforms.

But during a visit to meet with his counterpart in Copenhagen, Mr Cameron said while it was technically reversible, Britain would need to agree to it.

Mr Schulz had told Sky News: "Nothing in our lives is irreversible.

"Therefore legally binding decisions are also reversible - nothing is irreversible.

[Mr K]

Stopping benefits isnt going to stop migration - its a massive red herring peddled by Dave. Most are coming because of better wages. The minimum wage in the UK is over 3 times that of Poland -that's the reason they come and who can blame them. They are mostly filling jobs that British chavsters are too bone idle or don't have the skills to do - our economy would be stuffed without them.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Osem

Why we should be paying anyone for their children who're not living here is beyond me.

Why we should be paying anyone for their children is beyond me.