[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Can anyone explain to me why Scotland are apparently so pro-EU?

ABE...

(Anybody But England)

[roughbeast]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Can anyone explain to me why Scotland are apparently so pro-EU?

Perhaps it is because they are more immune to the decades of misinformation and EU myths dished out by the Murdoch press and The Daily Mail. Scottish cynicism about the media will have been a factor in their immunity. Meanwhile south of the border we have been groomed to the point that 50% of us now want out. So relentless has been the campaign that lies are now accepted as truth

There will be an element of ABE about this too, but they wouldn't get their wish for quite a few years after Scottish independence, because they would have to reapply to join the EU as a new nation.

Under the protective wing of the EU they have also benefited proportionally more from EU funding than England, e.g. through the Regional Development Fund. This could well be a factor.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by ntluser

As has been suggested before Cameron is going to attempt to convince us that he has extracted major concessions and that we should stay in the EU in the same way that George Osborne tried to con us that he had got the EU to reduce our contribution when in fact he had simply used the UK rebate to cut the cost.

The sad truth is that the Conservatives want to stay in the EU and are now trying to manage both the "YES" campaign and the "NO" campaign to ensure that we stay in. Indeed we now have the scaremongers telling us that leaving the EU will be a leap in the dark. We simply cannot trust the Conservatives to act in the national interest.

Another fact is that the meagre concessions that Cameron has gone for are only a fraction of what the people in the UK wanted.

Though there are trading advantages to staying in the EU which Cameron focuses on, there are considerable disadvantages which ordinary people focus on.

The disadvantages are:-

a) having no control over immigration from the EU and the benefit costs to out of work EU immigrants, not to mention the pressure put on the NHS, housing and schools. Immigrants with needed skills are important to the economy but we need to be able to control how many immigrants come in and who they are.

b) having no control over the financial aspects of the wasteful and ineffective gravy train lifestyle of politicians and civil servants working in the EU

c) being subject to EU laws which adversely affect the UK especially being unable to get rid of EU immigrants who commit crimes and other other problems arising from the EU's Human Rights Act..

d) being expected at some point to take part in financial union and possibly adopting the Euro in the future though admittedly that may be a long way off.

e) being expected to be a major contributor to the EU but being treated as the pariah of Europe and generally ignored because we seek to reform the EU's wasteful ways, though some of that can be put down to Cameron's arrogance and strategy

f) having to support countries like France who cannot secure their end of the Channel tunnel without financial aid from the UK or be expected to bolster up the Euro when the EU is in financial crisis

g) having to take in people from outside the EU because another member country of the EU has given them an EU passport.

h) the continous failure of the EU to produce accounts for at least the last 10 years and its failure to seek cheaper options to achieve the same ends

No doubt other forum members can think of reasons to leave the EU but in essence it is about the lessening ability of the UK to control what goes on within its borders and the dictatorial demands of the EU.

It will be interesting to hear what other forum members think and to see what happens between now and the EU referendum.

Unfortunately we'd have to abide by quite a bit of that even if we left. Point f is defiantly in our favour, as it stands we turn people away in France from trying to get here. Point c is mute as the echr isn't anything to do with the EU iirc as is point h as I thought the EU finances were audited and signed of since 2008?

[techguyone]

One thing in our favour is voting apathy, older more mature people tend to vote more than our younger brethren, older people remember how the Common Market was conceived, and this isn't anything like it, we also remember the farce of the last referendum (about 5 minutes after we joined) I'd say we have a fighting chance of voting OUT

[Osem]

Well I certainly remember what the Common Market was supposed to be and it isn't the out of control behemoth which the EEC has morphed into.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by roughbeast

Perhaps it is because they are more immune to the decades of misinformation and EU myths dished out by the Murdoch press and The Daily Mail. Scottish cynicism about the media will have been a factor in their immunity. Meanwhile south of the border we have been groomed to the point that 50% of us now want out. So relentless has been the campaign that lies are now accepted as truth.

Hmm. I'm far from convinced that lies and propaganda come purely from the 'out' side.

If it's that cut and dry why are the only arguments I've heard so far in favour of staying in hyperbole and baseless claims regarding trade?

I read material from a bunch of people, including heavily from Labour MPs and MEPs, and none have made a persuasive case. All fear, doom and gloom. The exact same arguments that were brought out to try and get the UK into the Eurozone.

The Murdoch press are an easy target for sure, but I'm not convinced it's quite that simple. Indeed the hostility to some negative reports on the EU that can be heard south of the border makes me question this all the more.

[roughbeast]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Hmm. I'm far from convinced that lies and propaganda come purely from the 'out' side.

If it's that cut and dry why are the only arguments I've heard so far in favour of staying in hyperbole and baseless claims regarding trade?

I read material from a bunch of people, including heavily from Labour MPs and MEPs, and none have made a persuasive case. All fear, doom and gloom. The exact same arguments that were brought out to try and get the UK into the Eurozone.

The Murdoch press are an easy target for sure, but I'm not convinced it's quite that simple. Indeed the hostility to some negative reports on the EU that can be heard south of the border makes me question this all the more.

I am sure I will return to the trade thing again, but for fear of going over it all again right now I shall just stick to the myth thing.

It really is worth trawling through the EU myths site, not least because all official EU sites are bound in law to state facts accurately. Here you will find retorts to the bilge trotted out by the Europhobe press and politicians.

http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/blog/

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by roughbeast

It really is worth trawling through the EU myths site, not least because all official EU sites are bound in law to state facts accurately. Here you will find retorts to the bilge trotted out by the Europhobe press and politicians.

http://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/blog/

Thank you, although I either hadn't seen the claims mentioned in the first page of those or hadn't paid the claims much mind given I don't recall them.

Largely because I don't read the Express and don't take the Mail as gospel.

I'm not actually that interested in those claims and they aren't why I'm an 'outer'.

[figgyburn]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Can anyone explain to me why Scotland are apparently so pro-EU?

I'm afraid scotland will be just like the vast majority of europe's members and will just suck on the brussels teat for ever more subsidies for voting for merkel and the rest of the loonies hare brained ideas.The snp have figured brussels will subsidise us more than westminister.They do not care about the eu's policies just give us more money.What idiots actually think unlimited immigration is a good idea?.That's working out well is it not?.l.It's in a hiatus over the winter but come sunnier days the migration march will start rolling again towards europe.The lunatics truly are running the asylum.I'm of an age that i can sit back and watch these clowns in action and feel sad for the youth of europe.What a world they are going to have in the coming years.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Can anyone explain to me why Scotland are apparently so pro-EU?

They're not. Scotland is less pro-EU than most of the U.K. but not much more so than London.

Being sparsely populated, immigration and benefits abuse (which feeds the debate in England, even if it isn't the real reason we ought to be pushing for Out) doesn't really figure up here.

However, the SNPee has a major problem with any policy that is seen as being Tory, in that it is genetically hard-wired to be in opposition to it. The Nats are Europhiles because they see the Tories as Eurosceptics. Sadly, that is the infantilised state of Scottish politics these days.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Chris

However, the SNPee has a major problem with any policy that is seen as being Tory, in that it is genetically hard-wired to be in opposition to it. The Nats are Europhiles because they see the Tories as Eurosceptics.

Always a good way to get a yesser confused (not especially hard I know) just get them to explain why one Union where Scotland has a voice and influence greater than it should is bad yet another where they would be very much a minor member with minuscule influence is good.

[Osem]

I don't suppose the EU doing away with the Dublin arrangements will hurt the out campaign.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Derek

Always a good way to get a yesser confused (not especially hard I know) just get them to explain why one Union where Scotland has a voice and influence greater than it should is bad yet another where they would be very much a minor member with minuscule influence is good.

They may also want to note that rejoining the EU will automagically oblige them to join the Euro.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

They may also want to note that rejoining the EU will automagically oblige them to join the Euro.

No chance, it's oor poond and we'll share it if we want.

(Which was, of course, a cynical, confected row designed to divert the hard-of-thinking from the truth with a good old fashioned rant against Tories "lecturing Scotland").

Honestly, there are still people around here who think there was some kind of astonishing, sophisticated political awakening in Scotland in 2014. All we actually have now is a situation where you rebut your opponent by denouncing them as "Red Tory", "Blue Tory" or "Tartan Tory", depending on your outlook and audience. I despair.

Rant over.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

They may also want to note that rejoining the EU will automagically oblige them to join the Euro.

That means we will have to have immigration controls on the Scottish border if we vote out surely?