Cameron lied to get back in (tax credits and hard working people)

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

The House of Lords made a judgment and the Tories sould accept the decision and stop making a threat

The HoL is an anachronism and a meddlesome one at that. Unelected toffs should keep their noses out of important Government policy; they have embarrassed us all not just the chancellor.

There's nearly £90m to be saved when that lot goes; wouldn't you rather have that money in the pockets of hard working families Arthur?

Yeah lets do away with the second chamber so that everything goes through nice and easy don't need meddlesome people getting in the way. Every now and then the house of lords actually get it right not often I'll grant but they do have a habit of getting it right when it counts. Cameron and Osbourne got too confident and it's come back to bite them which is not a bad thing the two of them realising they can't actually do as they please is the best thing for this country.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Yeah lets do away with the second chamber so that everything goes through nice and easy don't need meddlesome people getting in the way. Every now and then the house of lords actually get it right not often I'll grant but they do have a habit of getting it right when it counts. Cameron and Osbourne got too confident and it's come back to bite them which is not a bad thing the two of them realising they can't actually do as they please is the best thing for this country.

Without an effective opposition in the commons the Labour / Lib-dem majority in the lords is the only effective force to hold the government to account.

Not a good situation but if it makes the removal of tax credits phased and less painful then it's all for the good. There is talk of raising the NI threshold to put more money into the pockets of the lowest paid.

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The Lords cannot stop a bill, they can delay it and suggest amendments but they can't stop it.

Except it wasn't a bill it was a Statutory Instrument (SI) which in certain cases (like this) need expressly approving by both Houses.

Cheers

Grim

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Yeah lets do away with the second chamber so that everything goes through nice and easy don't need meddlesome people getting in the way. Every now and then the house of lords actually get it right not often I'll grant but they do have a habit of getting it right when it counts. Cameron and Osbourne got too confident and it's come back to bite them which is not a bad thing the two of them realising they can't actually do as they please is the best thing for this country.

The democratically elected Government has been frustrated by a bunch of old rambling handbags who sleep in the chamber. When awake, they mumble with the self-important strangulated elocution of a very bygone era.

We are the riff-raff that has to be tolerated if their wine cellar is to be kept topped up for buckshee; be nice to the natives old fruit.

Your preference for toffs over posh boys is a bit paradoxical .

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Kursk

The democratically elected Government has been frustrated by a bunch of old rambling handbags who sleep in the chamber. When awake, they mumble with the self-important strangulated elocution of a very bygone era.

Someone remind me which half of the former coalition government rejected reform of the Lords to a democratically elected chamber in the last parliament?

Fascinating how the Lords being unelected goes from being useful when a government is stuffing it with their appointments to an issue when things don't go their way.

Chances of genuine reform are of course slim. I can think of few things a government would find more alarming than a proportionally elected second chamber with senate powers. It runs a strong risk that our legislature will actually start to be more genuinely representative rather than being entirely winnable through targeted, intense, expensive campaigning in a small subset of seats.

I do hope the recent Tory outrage will led them to supporting reform but I doubt it's going to amount to much. It will probably simply result in removing powers and nothing more.

This has to be the most incompetent and tone-deaf action of the Tory actions since 2010 though. The refusal to back-down as all their support, even from the press and backbenchers, was ebbing away as well as the inability to see why suddenly removing a substantial amount of somebodies income would cause issues. It's even more puzzling considering there were obvious alternatives that wouldn't be so drastic but would still have made up a lot of the savings.

Maybe they just got far too confident.

[Ignitionnet]

You can't seriously claim that cutting tax credits is about the country living within its means when you are simultaneously cutting inheritance tax.

That's nothing more than a transfer of money from the poor to the extremely wealthy. That they didn't think there would be pushback is astonishing.

What's worse is that Labour in the Commons have managed to be utterly impotent and the push against the tax credit changes has come from elsewhere.

As long as labour are as ineffective as they are in the commons we are going to need greater opposition from the HOL or this current bunch of Tories will run rampant tearing our society to pieces as they go. Living within our means is a very subjective thing to Osbourne that only applies when it suits him and Cameron seems to think his election win gives him carte Blanche to do as he pleases. They are temporary residents and the sooner the public start paying attention the better. Cameron I'm not too worried about I don't give him too much longer as PM but who follows may well be worse.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Someone remind me which half of the former coalition government rejected reform of the Lords to a democratically elected chamber in the last parliament?

Fair comment. It just goes to show how unpredictable and unreliable the old duffers are. It's no way to run a modern Country.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

You can't seriously claim that cutting tax credits is about the country living within its means when you are simultaneously cutting inheritance tax.

I see your point but tax credits are unearnt money whilst inheritance tax is an iniquitous tax on already taxed income (ie it's my property, I earnt the money to pay for it and I want a say as to who it's left to-and that doesn't include the govt!)

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I just hope the same thing happen to Cameron that happened to Thatcher, and he takes Osborne with him

What they are basically doing, is ripping this country to pieces with there severe cuts with them

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I see your point but tax credits are unearnt money whilst inheritance tax is an iniquitous tax on already taxed income (ie it's my property, I earnt the money to pay for it and I want a say as to who it's left to-and that doesn't include the govt!)

Tax credits could be seen as 'giving tax back' to those who shouldn't have been paying it. I think it would be better to continue to raise the Personal Allowance and increase the rate at which you pay NI and you draw down tax credits at the same time.

Inheritance tax is an interesting one. Not sure what to think about that. I can see both sides and it's one of those issues you can debate forever.

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

I just hope the same thing happen to Cameron that happened to Thatcher, and he takes Osborne with him

What they are basically doing, is ripping this country to pieces with there severe cuts with them

It's alright fighting one side of the argument but the following appears to apply

Labour - give everyone what they want, bankrupt and eventually turn the country upside down whilst lying through elections. Tories - Take it all away, lie through elections, tears like a wet paper towel when under pressure from foreign nations

The country will always be in pieces if you allow the same two parties to play ping pong with you. At the same time though, if Labour hadn't made a mess of everything then there needn't be such drastic cuts. Can't have it both ways.

[peanut]

George Osborne may have to drastically reconsider his cuts to tax credits after a succession of Conservative MPs warned him in the Commons that his measures punished the wrong people and could permanently damage the party’s “reputation for compassion”.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...hey-go-too-far

Got to be the funniest thing I've heard yet.