Unstoppable migration?

[ianch99]

So in the enlightened future where the UK says "sod off" to anyone who wants to come here (unless they are rich) and mocks the EU for trying (badly) to help the poor devils who are trying to escape Assad's barrel bombs and ISIS's Nazi thugs, what should these miserable people do?

What would *you* do in their position?

[techguyone]

I'd stop hedging my bets and trying to cross 10+ other countries & 100's if not 1,000's of extra miles to get to the one *I wanted to go to for a start. Then perhaps I'd stop looking like an opportunist and more like the 'refugee' I'm supposed to be trying to be.
Yes, that'd be a good start,.

[Osem]

Don't worry, the EU will sport it out in their typically prompt and decisive manner...


If I was a refugee maybe I'd feel compelled to respect the rules of the countries I was requiring help and support from or I'd expect my presence to be greatly resented.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by ianch99

So in the enlightened future where the UK says "sod off" to anyone who wants to come here (unless they are rich) and mocks the EU for trying (badly) to help the poor devils who are trying to escape Assad's barrel bombs and ISIS's Nazi thugs, what should these miserable people do?

What would *you* do in their position?

I wouldn't leave my wife and children back home as I tried to 'escape to safety' and then call them over (like a lot of the 'refugees' on the BBC are saying) because if I was a genuine refugee I would take my wife and children with me because it is too dangerous to leave them back home.
(just speaking from a position of every single refugee with a family in WW2....like my family were)

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by techguyone

I'd stop hedging my bets and trying to cross 10+ other countries & 100's if not 1,000's of extra miles to get to the one *I wanted to go to for a start. Then perhaps I'd stop looking like an opportunist and more like the 'refugee' I'm supposed to be trying to be.
Yes, that'd be a good start,.

So where should they go? You have said where they shouldn't try and go to .. What is your 'refugee' supposed to do? I am not sure risking lives in inflatable boats equates to being an opportunist.

---------- Post added at 00:14 ---------- Previous post was at 00:12 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Don't worry, the EU will sport it out in their typically prompt and decisive manner...

while the UK watches and mocks their attempts to help ..

[Russ]

Originally Posted by ianch99

So where should they go?

The first safe country available. Any other would be a choice and therefore they would not be 'desperate' or 'in need'.

We certainly have a moral responsibility to aid others however a lot of this feels like when someone complains about being unemployed and eager to work but turns down a job because they 'don't like the idea of night shifts' or say "I don't fancy all that walking/lifting/carrying just for minimum wage".

[techguyone]

Originally Posted by ianch99

So where should they go? You have said where they shouldn't try and go to .. What is your 'refugee' supposed to do? I am not sure risking lives in inflatable boats equates to being an opportunist.

---------- Post added at 00:14 ---------- Previous post was at 00:12 ----------



while the UK watches and mocks their attempts to help ..

I dunno, Oh wait, how about the first safe country they find themselves in, or even the second, hell let's say no #3.
No lets not, lets travel another 1,000 miles & go through another 5 countries like a Grand Tour until we find one we 'like'
Alternatively we could go on a nice Cruise to exotic far off places, then wonder why our Cruise ship (actually rubber dinghy) falls apart when a wave hits it, and because cruising is so popular, the tour operator overbooked a tad so the ship is really really really full.

Maybe it's time you & your ilk realised wringing your hands and bleating a lot isn't really helping, and it's making things worse. Do you seriously think Merkel helped things by making a grand proclamation?
You do know even these poor refugees all have mobile phones, sat nav & social media?
Did you not wonder why the flow of migrants - sorry REFUGEES became a flood?

The ONLY sensible non hysterical media driven thing I've seen ANY Country do to date is the UK.

You know why? because when they've finished allegedly 'mocking' them

They've come up with a suggestion both practical & humane - oh it also cuts off the people smugglers off at the knees.

Wow how did they achieve his mighty feat?

Well by saying they would accept a managed amount over a sensible time frame, and by transporting the REFUGEES directly from the camps in the home country or near to it.

So take your emotive BS & Media driven drivel about mocking with you & do one, you're clearly deluded. some of us live in the real world, I think you're better off staying in Fairyland.

[Osem]

I think what some people here are deliberately avoiding is reality. The reality which comes from large numbers of desperate people, a proportion of whom will pose problems to our society in one way or another whether that be terrorism, criminality, a refusal to integrate or whatever. It's all very well conjuring up images of vulnerable and genuine refugees but don't use those to try to mask the rest and the very serious problems they potentially pose for our society. Right now. we are seeing the start of serious social disorder where these large numbers of migrants are heading. Those still on the move and refusing to be processed in the safe countries they've passed through have decided what they want and are hell bent on getting it to the extent that they will force their way across borders and confront those whose job it is to stop them. I'm sorry but IMHO no migrant has the right to do that, including refugees. However deserving a refugee may be, that status doesn't confer on them the right to choose which rules they obey and which they don't once they've reached safety. The danger we face here is that those migrants whose intentions aren't positive are mingling freely with large numbers desperate and vulnerable people who are likely to be susceptible to all manner of misinformation and malicious behaviour including, even, forms of radicalisation, coercion and abuse. I can't imagine a more fertile feeding ground for those who wish to destroy our way of life and for that reason we have to get to grips with what's going on before it's too late, if we're not already past that point. We can all have sympathy for the genuine refugees try to help on a personal and governmental level but we cannot allow migrants to 'invade' the EU and that is effectively what's happening. What we need to do is ensure the genuine refugees have safe places to go as close to their homelands as possible and make it known that those who flout the rules will be classed and treated as economic migrants and never be allowed to remain.

I'm still waiting for anyone from the 'let them in regardless' brigade to answer the question at what point can we take no more and how do we then stop others from following? Germany is proof of what happens when you open flood gates, it's easy - closing them again isn't!

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by techguyone

I dunno, Oh wait, how about the first safe country they find themselves in, or even the second, hell let's say no #3.
No lets not, lets travel another 1,000 miles & go through another 5 countries like a Grand Tour until we find one we 'like'
Alternatively we could go on a nice Cruise to exotic far off places, then wonder why our Cruise ship (actually rubber dinghy) falls apart when a wave hits it, and because cruising is so popular, the tour operator overbooked a tad so the ship is really really really full.

Maybe it's time you & your ilk realised wringing your hands and bleating a lot isn't really helping, and it's making things worse. Do you seriously think Merkel helped things by making a grand proclamation?
You do know even these poor refugees all have mobile phones, sat nav & social media?
Did you not wonder why the flow of migrants - sorry REFUGEES became a flood?

The ONLY sensible non hysterical media driven thing I've seen ANY Country do to date is the UK.

You know why? because when they've finished allegedly 'mocking' them

They've come up with a suggestion both practical & humane - oh it also cuts off the people smugglers off at the knees.

Wow how did they achieve his mighty feat?



So take your emotive BS & Media driven drivel about mocking with you & do one, you're clearly deluded. some of us live in the real world, I think you're better off staying in Fairyland.

What utter crap

So what if a refugee has a mobile phone ? a lot of these people are highly trained abd highly skilled people such as surgeons and engineers who's homes and environments have been destroyed by the current troubles

Current troubles it should be said that in certain countries we had a systematic part to play by attempting and in some circumstances succeeded in destabilisng the regimes (let's glaze over the fact that war for regime change is in fact a crime)

Let's put ourselves in a refugees place for a moment lets put ourselves in a camp with poor sanitation high risk of disease no actual guarantees of being able to claim due to the pathetic quantity the government has offered 20000 over the rest of the parliamentary term or then let's look at the next option risking potentially their and their families lives to try to make a decent future for themselves in countries with economic growth

What would you do? Stay in a squalid camp and hope for salvation. or attempt to get yourself and your family to a place of potential prosperity?

You're the one who is a) quite clearly deluded and b) an utter fool

However the biggest fools are the politicians as Johnny Rotten said on CNN how on earth did they not see this was coming ?

And before you say anything I've put my money where my mouth is and myself and my fiancée have registered to take a refugee family into our homes when and as needed.

I'll backup my moral stance with action, where's yours ? Or will you just bitch like a little girl on a message board ? Plenty of demonstrations you could go on?

[techguyone]

I kinda get the feeling you read my post with your fingers in your ears singing loudly tra la la...

The point you're missing entirely is the fact these people are tromping across ALL of Europe to get to the promised land, you haven't addressed that, in fact you're pretty much making out all europe bar the North is a dangerous barren, unwelcoming place. - god knows where your squalid camp comes from, it seems upwards of 1/4 million people are on the move, and whilst they go through Country after Country rejecting all, you'll have to accept that those of us with a bit of grey matter between our ears might not be so understanding as you.

My stance isn't moral or immoral, it's sensible, your's is emotive & based on complete bs

I'll say it again. The UK response of a measured, planned, controlled acceptance of Refugees far far out trumps the other Countries offer of Come on down! - then a week or so later, Oh actually we're full now, go away.

You have a great day now playing Happy (migrant) Families.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

What would you do? Stay in a squalid camp and hope for salvation. or attempt to get yourself and your family to a place of potential prosperity?

Neither, you get yourself to the nearest safe country.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by techguyone

I'll say it again. The UK response of a measured, planned, controlled acceptance of Refugee

I don't think the world would agree that 20,000 refugees over 4 years is in any way a measured response from the world's 4th wealthiest nation.

Saying that, you are missing the point: the UK should be helping more, much more but not in the way the right wing are bleating about i.e. taking in people into the UK. What should be happening, and Cameron should be leading on this, is to establish:

- set-up of safe havens inside Syria and Iraq backed up by ground troops if necessary
- investment in permament refugee camps in neighbouring countries, run by the UNHR and funded by the US, UK, EU, etc
- support of neighbouring countries e.g. Lebanon, Turkey, etc in they ability to accomodate the refugees
- deployment of Nato troops to Turkey to control the flow of people, materiel and money to ISIS
- working with Russia to defeat ISIS and the Islamist rebels, constrain Assad in his killing of civilians and then later aim to remove Assad from power if possible

Doing this is in the UK's national interest and will seek to cure the cause of the problem and not the symptoms.

Cameron and the West are watching Rome burn .. they are trying to handle the fallout from a conflict they are not attempting to control. At some point, the Middle East will get to a point where it will not be containable ..

Imagine if ISIS defeats Assad and whose border will they then be knocking on? Israel ... Hamas on one side, ISIS on the other. That is not going to play out well ..

[techguyone]

They are helping, now we see something worthwhile being done with our Foreign Aid money, finally something to get behind that's tangible. Now back to Fairyland with you.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Russ

Neither, you get yourself to the nearest safe country.

Do you want the best for your family or do you just make do?

---------- Post added at 13:46 ---------- Previous post was at 13:45 ----------

Originally Posted by techguyone

I kinda get the feeling you read my post with your fingers in your ears singing loudly tra la la...

The point you're missing entirely is the fact these people are tromping across ALL of Europe to get to the promised land, you haven't addressed that, in fact you're pretty much making out all europe bar the North is a dangerous barren, unwelcoming place. - god knows where your squalid camp comes from, it seems upwards of 1/4 million people are on the move, and whilst they go through Country after Country rejecting all, you'll have to accept that those of us with a bit of grey matter between our ears might not be so understanding as you.

My stance isn't moral or immoral, it's sensible, your's is emotive & based on complete bs

I'll say it again. The UK response of a measured, planned, controlled acceptance of Refugees far far out trumps the other Countries offer of Come on down! - then a week or so later, Oh actually we're full now, go away.

You have a great day now playing Happy (migrant) Families.

I'll deal with your nonsense bollocks when I have my laptop in front of me rather than typing on my phone

[Osem]

If you were unfortunate to be in an empty lifeboat surrounded by desperate people floundering in the cruel sea, at some point you'd have to stop taking people on board. Fact! The only question is at what point do you stop and how do you prevent people continuing to scramble on board until everyone goes down. It's an unpalatable analogy but undeniable. We're not going to sink or starve under the weight of migrants but we will find that if the numbers continue to grow (and there's no reason why they wouldn't given poverty and turmoil around the globe) we will reach the tipping point at which we will have irreversible and increasing social tensions and unrest across Europe and especially in areas like the Balkans. Who knows where that will lead. Something has to be done before it's too late and anyone who can't see that is in denial. It wasn't that long ago that we were all horrified by widespread rioting by our very own disaffected youth who already believe they're lives are impossible and prospects non-existent, despite being far better off than these migrants. Expect more of the same and far worse if this carries on.

What would you do if a desperate beggar arrived on your doorstep, asked for help and having decided that a loaf of bread and a few quid wasn't quite enough, forced his way into your house, helped himself to a bath and bed, then refused to leave. Would his plight and the reasons for it really stop you wanting to throw him out?

---------- Post added at 13:49 ---------- Previous post was at 13:48 ----------

Originally Posted by techguyone

They are helping, now we see something worthwhile being done with our Foreign Aid money, finally something to get behind that's tangible. Now back to Fairyland with you.

IIRC the UK has given more aid than the rest of the EU combined and yes we should redirect more of our huge aid budget to this cause.