Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money

Originally Posted by Sirius

I intend to cash in on some of mine in March, then sponge off the state pension at 65 in the same way that the will not work and have never worked types do with benefits now. I will still have one private,my state and full army pension

If you still have your private and army pension then won't they take that into account anyway? Also isn't the state pension flat rate now either way?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Damien

If you still have your private and army pension then won't they take that into account anyway? Also isn't the state pension flat rate now either way?

Will find out in March when i take advice on my best options

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Will find out in March when i take advice on my best options

I will save a few quid on that meeting as my advice would consist of 'Thanks for paying 6 figures on other people's state pensions. You're on your own. Please either get private healthcare or die quickly to avoid burdening what's left of the NHS.'.

[Kursk]

I don't begrudge this particular client group from a little bit extra. No more than I begrudged the changes in stamp duty.

Is it that much different to all the other benefits dished out from the public purse such as tax credits, disability allowances, child benefit etc.

I imagine everyone gets a handout of one sort or another; why shouldn't the oldies have a few bob too? They pay/paid into the system.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Kursk

I don't begrudge this particular client group from a little bit extra. No more than I begrudged the changes in stamp duty.

Is it that much different to all the other benefits dished out from the public purse such as tax credits, disability allowances, child benefit etc.

I imagine everyone gets a handout of one sort or another; why shouldn't the oldies have a few bob too? They pay/paid into the system.

Its about time those of us that work and pay in get something back.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Its about time those of us that work and pay in get something back.

Bit late for that given the state pension just went flat rate...

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:57 ----------

Originally Posted by Kursk

I imagine everyone gets a handout of one sort or another; why shouldn't the oldies have a few bob too? They pay/paid into the system.

60% of them drew out more than they put in. The idea that every 'oldie', net, paid into the system is a fallacy.

---------- Post added at 18:00 ---------- Previous post was at 17:58 ----------

Originally Posted by Kursk

I don't begrudge this particular client group from a little bit extra. No more than I begrudged the changes in stamp duty.

Is it that much different to all the other benefits dished out from the public purse such as tax credits, disability allowances, child benefit etc.

So none of this client group will have received tax credits, disability allowances, child benefit, or whatever else at some point during their lives?

There seems to be this bizarre view that current and imminent retirees received nothing from 'the system' and purely contributed, drawing from the system apparently being something that only 'the young' do.

That's demonstrably not the case. They received a number of unique benefits from 'the system' during their lifetime, some of which are simply not available now, some of which are being paid for by current taxpayers who aren't going to get them themselves.

Additionally a lot of benefits are being removed from Younger people. EMA was the first to go, tuition fees were increased (in part because of increased numbers however), jobseekers allowance has been raised, housing benefit has been cut, youth services (counselling, advice, centres and medical info) have been decimated and other support networks are gone too. It is largely charities that remain.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

So none of this client group will have received tax credits, disability allowances, child benefit, or whatever else at some point during their lives?

I don't know. Do you?

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

There seems to be this bizarre view that current and imminent retirees received nothing from 'the system' and purely contributed, drawing from the system apparently being something that only 'the young' do.

Where does this 'bizarre view' come from? It's not been mentioned here.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

That's demonstrably not the case. They received a number of unique benefits from 'the system' during their lifetime, some of which are simply not available now, some of which are being paid for by current taxpayers who aren't going to get them themselves.

But that is a repeating circumstance. Who knows what special deal will be available to you in your retirement? No doubt you're currently receiving a benefit that a pensioner does not qualify for.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Kursk

I don't know. Do you?

So if you don't know why don't you begrudge them 'a little bit extra'? Does everyone in that case deserve a little bit extra given you can't say whether or not they've, for want of a better phrase, paid their way and received benefits that the current workforce may or may not have? Do they deserve these benefits on account of miraculously reaching 80% of the average lifespan in the UK now?

Originally Posted by Kursk

Where does this 'bizarre view' come from? It's not been mentioned here.

You said that they pay/paid into the system. I would've thought that'd mean that the current generation of retirees somehow universally paid more into the 'system' than they took out else they wouldn't really have paid into the system.

Just FYI they didn't. The current workforce is paying higher taxes in order to correct a massive underinvestment in the country as a whole by the current retiree and near-retiree cohort, having subsidised that cohort heavily in other ways but hey what are facts when we're dealing with our poor, impoverished pensioners?

Originally Posted by Kursk

But that is a repeating circumstance. Who knows what special deal will be available to you in your retirement? No doubt you're currently receiving a benefit that a pensioner does not qualify for.

I'm more than happy to open up my entire tax affairs, so if you could show me a benefit I receive that a pensioner does not qualify for that'd be appreciated.

Child benefit? Nope - it's no longer universal and I'm not entitled. Tax credits? Nope. Anything else come to mind?

If you'd be good enough to point out a benefit I receive that a pensioner doesn't qualify for that'd be awesome. Good luck with it, mind you, as I'm quite deep into that 40% who do actually pay their way.

Yes, believe it or not some of them are the younger generations, not retirees who apparently, miraculously, paid so much into the system while working that everything they receive in retirement is what they've paid for with no subsidy from today's workforce required.

The single largest reason for the mass immigration during the Labour years is to pay the bills for the current and upcoming cohort of retirees because the politicians of that era ****ed away their one-off windfalls and left the younger generations a massive bill to make up for a lack of investment in infrastructure and a resultant big productivity gap, ignoring the huge healthcare costs said generation will inevitably incur when they near the end of their lives.

Call me cynical but I think older generations have quite enough. Our welfare state is a pile of pap in many ways, it shouldn't be slightly less pap for one group because they vote more. When you think about it that's nothing more than these bonds are - wealthy, or apparently not so wealthy given the bonds look like being oversubscribed, OAP welfare.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

So none of this client group will have received tax credits, disability allowances, child benefit, or whatever else at some point during their lives?

There seems to be this bizarre view that current and imminent retirees received nothing from 'the system' and purely contributed, drawing from the system apparently being something that only 'the young' do.

That's demonstrably not the case. They received a number of unique benefits from 'the system' during their lifetime, some of which are simply not available now, some of which are being paid for by current taxpayers who aren't going to get them themselves.

I have been lucky and have never been out of work, i have never had tax credits, housing benefit, dole, working tax credits. In fact i don't think i have had any benefits in my time as a working member of society. So i think its time i had something back.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

So if you don't know".......etc

Sorry, I'm not sufficiently motivated for a protracted discussion. I suppose I am just less envious .

Besides, it's just a handout like all the other handouts.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Sorry, I'm not sufficiently motivated for a protracted discussion. I suppose I am just less envious .

Right, clearly I'm just envious, can't be a sense of fairness in there it's all jealousy

---------- Post added at 21:38 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

Originally Posted by Sirius

I have been lucky and have never been out of work, i have never had tax credits, housing benefit, dole, working tax credits. In fact i don't think i have had any benefits in my time as a working member of society. So i think its time i had something back.

This doesn't necessarily mean that you have made a positive contribution or that you will throughout your life, though. That depends on your household's income, how many kids were in that household, and a few other things.

Nearly all of us get something back in our retirement - we will almost certainly cost the NHS a bomb as we near the end of our lives and retirement is the time when there's some equivalence.

This doesn't justify a bribe from current taxpayers - they really shouldn't be paying to ensure pensioners who can invest £20k a year get taxpayer subsidised interest rates on their savings. This is wrong however you cut it.

[Osem]

Maybe this scheme ought to be means tested in some way but I have no problem with people who've worked hard and managed to save some money doing so and getting slightly better rates. I can't imagine there are that many pensioners who'll be investing £20k a year for very long. That sum might represent someone's entire savings after a lifetime in work and money which they rely upon to supplement the basic state pension. Would it be better/cheaper if they decided to spend it on cars and holidays then claim additional support or free social care?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Osem

Maybe this scheme ought to be means tested in some way but I have no problem with people who've worked hard and managed to save some money doing so and getting slightly better rates. I can't imagine there are that many pensioners who'll be investing £20k a year for very long. That sum might represent someone's entire savings after a lifetime in work and money which they rely upon to supplement the basic state pension. Would it be better/cheaper if they decided to spend it on cars and holidays then claim additional support or free social care?

Difficult to means test as the more wealthy will be the only ones who'd have the cash.

There appear to be a fair amount of pensioners wanting to invest, and there's a nice bolus of people retiring who'll have considerable assets thanks to house price inflation.

Try justifying this to all of the people who are going to be paying twice for retirees and near-retirees' pensions, via taxes and rents on buy to let investments. Thanks to this they also get to subsidise the interest rates their landlords receive on their savings, in between paying them rent, paying taxes for their state pension, and paying for the various tax reliefs they get as a landlord.

What a great deal.

The last sentence is a ridiculous straw man. This isn't a case of either they get subsidised savings rates or they spend all their money on cars and holidays then claim off the taxpayer.

I'm not sure why any small-c conservative would support this policy. It is profoundly not conservative, it's corrupt and it's socialism for a client group.

The conservative solution would be for the government and the BoE to rebalance between savings and borrowing rates via monetary policy rather than constant subsidy. Given our present rate of inflation current savings rates are actually quite appropriate; the government shouldn't be borrowing money at 4% when it could be paying 0.6% to buy votes.

[Osem]

lol It's not a straw man at all. Just an observation which applies to some and not others. Many of the people who're investing their £20k's will have gone without all sorts of things plenty of us younger folks have and still do take for granted. If they'd lived the way many do today and spent every penny they earned they would have been more reliant on the state throughout their working lives and more so their retirements. Having downsized from a 3 bed semi to a shoebox a few years ago my parents have some savings which they use to supplement the miniscule state pension they're entitled to. My mum went to a grammar school but my father didn't even get an education having been forced to leave at the age of 12-13 and like many of their generation, to get the 3 bed house they wound up owning many years later they did things like scrimp and save for years - no new cars, foreign holidays, no meals out, no smoking, no drinking, second hand clothes and cheap food. By doing this they managed to provide for themselves and qualified for nothing other than child benefit. My dad was self employed so there was no such thing as unemployment benefit for him. Thanks to the artificially low interest rates, their income has dropped significantly and their capital been eroded partly in order to bail out those who borrowed, remortgaged and borrowed some more to fund their relatively lavish lifestyles. If they are now getting some help by way of slightly higher interest rates so be it. There are plenty of things which in my opinion are far more unfair but they're probably best left to other threads.