Ghostly presence explained?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ThunderPants73

Ghosts are a purely human concept, as humans are the only creature with the capacity to make things up. Id est - an imagination.

Spirits, other worldly entities etc, have been around since the dawn of time.

But the "ghost", the modern "ghost story" as most of us accept is mainly a Victorian invention.

As mention earlier, since the dawn of time to collect evidence, and in recent times with sophisticated technology, there is still no compelling evidence that ghosts exist.

This recent study has put forward compelling evidence on why people alone, and in the dark, may perceive a "presence".

These feelings felt by our ancestors, and ourselves, go someway to explain ghost theory.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by ThunderPants73

Ghosts are a purely human concept, as humans are the only creature with the capacity to make things up. Id est - an imagination.

Humans are the only species to have any idea or suggestion of what ghosts (if they exists) are as we're the only ones to be aware of our own mortality.

[arcimedes]

Originally Posted by Russ

Humans are the only species to have any idea or suggestion of what ghosts (if they exists) are as we're the only ones to be aware of our own mortality.

Trouble with statements like this is that they are very difficult to prove or disprove.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Russ

Humans are the only species to have any idea or suggestion of what ghosts (if they exists) are as we're the only ones to be aware of our own mortality.

Very much under debate.

Other high order mammals and the odd bird without question are aware of the mortality of other animals, they grieve and show changes in behaviour. Whether they are aware of their own we don't know.

We tend to be too busy using them for entertaining videos in the case of domesticated animals or killing them for sport when we aren't wiping out their habitats in the case of wild ones to try and communicate with them to that degree.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Very much under debate.

Other high order mammals and the odd bird without question are aware of the mortality of other animals, they grieve and show changes in behaviour. Whether they are aware of their own we don't know.

I defer to the knowledge of Stephen Fry and Qi - he stated that current scientific thinking is that we're the only species with awareness of self-mortality.

[idi banashapan]

Originally Posted by Russ

I defer to the knowledge of Stephen Fry and Qi - he stated that current scientific thinking is that we're the only species with awareness of self-mortality.

Do you agree with Stephen Fry's statement?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by idi banashapan

Do you agree with Stephen Fry's statement?

I suspect I know where this one is going.

[idi banashapan]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I suspect I know where this one is going.

Merely interested the statement was presented authoritatively, but then it appeared at least to be distanced from when a good counter argument was presented. Nothing more than that. Of course, I could be totally reading it wrong. I'm happy to accept that! it's no biggy. Just an observation.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by idi banashapan

Merely interested the statement was presented authoritatively, but then it appeared at least to be distanced from when a good counter argument was presented. Nothing more than that. Of course, I could be totally reading it wrong. I'm happy to accept that! it's no biggy. Just an observation.

This came to mind.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by idi banashapan

Do you agree with Stephen Fry's statement?

Yes, I agree that it's the current scientific thinking. Do you agree with him?

[idi banashapan]

Originally Posted by Russ

Yes, I agree that it's the current scientific thinking. Do you agree with him?

Yes, I think so. Other animals may be aware of death, but I'm not convinced as of yet that they contemplate their own mortality. Seems like a sound theory to me.

[arcimedes]

I think it is sloppy thinking to consider that it should be regarded as a sound theory, I would go as far as regarding it as an hypothesis as it would be difficult to gather enough evidence either way.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by idi banashapan

Yes, I think so. Other animals may be aware of death, but I'm not convinced as of yet that they contemplate their own mortality. Seems like a sound theory to me.

But then no animal I'm aware of wants to be killed and eaten.

The instinct of every animal, I think, is to survive.

They know they cannot do that if they're dead. So they try to avoid lions and sharks. Therefore they are aware that they are alive, and if they are eaten they are dead.

So wouldn't that suggest they are aware of their mortality?

[idi banashapan]

Originally Posted by Pierre

But then no animal I'm aware of wants to be killed and eaten.

The instinct of every animal, I think, is to survive.

They know they cannot do that if they're dead. So they try to avoid lions and sharks. Therefore they are aware that they are alive, and if they are eaten they are dead.

So wouldn't that suggest they are aware of their mortality?

it could suggest an awareness of their own mortality. However, I see staying alive for most other animals as being instinctive rather than as a result of contemplating self-mortality, as is mating (the animal doesn't know why it's doing it, it just has the urge and overwhelming drive to do so). I don't believe frogs, for example, wonder about what might happen when they die, or consider in depth what they should do in life before passing on. They, like most animals, go about their business as part of instinctive or learned behavioural patterns.

animals and humans alike, regardless of cognitive ability, tend to live by the 'freeze, flight or fight' rule. these three reactions, in that order, are a direct result of a perceived threat to the self, absolutely. but because an animal contemplates mortality as humans do? I don't think so. it's more likely that the reactions are either a result of instinctive reactions (such as the avoidance of high temperatures as evolution has developed nervous systems that make it uncomfortable, and therefore create a necessity for avoidance), or because of learned behaviours from the group, herd or parents (such as running when a lion comes near because that's what is experienced any time time a lion is near).

---------- Post added at 23:16 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------

Originally Posted by arcimedes

I think it is sloppy thinking to consider that it should be regarded as a sound theory, I would go as far as regarding it as an hypothesis as it would be difficult to gather enough evidence either way.

true, it would indeed be hard to gather evidence. you may even be right that calling it a sound theory is perhaps too far.

but although we cannot yet prove one way or the other the internal thoughts of any species without relying on introspection (which in turn requires a bi-directional and mutually understood communicative method), I personally believe that the most likely hypothesis is that which humans are probably the only species on this planet to contemplate the self and self-mortality. an example that goes towards this could be that we are the only species, who actually repeatedly, observably and to a point, predictably plan for the event of our own death.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by idi banashapan

it could suggest an awareness of their own mortality. However, I see staying alive for most other animals as being instinctive rather than as a result of contemplating self-mortality, as is mating (the animal doesn't know why it's doing it, it just has the urge and overwhelming drive to do so). I don't believe frogs, for example, wonder about what might happen when they die, or consider in depth what they should do in life before passing on. They, like most animals, go about their business as part of instinctive or learned behavioural patterns. animals and humans alike, regardless of cognitive ability, tend to live by the 'freeze, flight or fight' rule. these three reactions, in that order, are a direct result of a perceived threat to the self, absolutely. but because an animal contemplates mortality as humans do? I don't think so..

I agree to a point, especially about lower order organisms.

But when you start looking at some mammals and birds I'm not so sure. It's not all just " instinct".

If you've ever observed a cat, for instance, they are very measured, they weigh up,their surroundings, they make clear decisions based on the inputs around them.

What about chimps, you can't say they just run on instinct? They are every much self aware.

Birds!, crows, magpies etc show proper reasoning and problem solving skills. Not just Instinct.

Do they lock themselves away and ponder the meaning of life. Who knows, cavemen probably didn't. The luxury to ponder the meaning life probably came when we didn't have to think about surviving from day to day.

It's interesting because we can never really know what an animal is thinking, and even if we could hear their thoughts their point of reference to existence would be so far removed from ours we wouldn't understand it anyway.