EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Really?? WW2 ended nearly 70 years ago - let it go.

Considering the British invented the concentration camp, quite ironic.

Well the Germans tried to rule Europe twice via war now they will do it via the EU

Just had to post that

Originally Posted by Sirius

Well the Germans tried to rule Europe twice via war now they will do it via the EU

Just had to post that

You may wish to check Britain's record on trying to rule the world before you condemn Germany

And for a lot of that time, Germany were our allies.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

I'll let Dan Hannan, someone I will freely mention I don't agree with on a number of things, give a more erudite and complete answer to this than my earlier post.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...inside-eu.html

I would strongly suggest you read it and perhaps try countering those points rather than simply describing us as Little England and, without supplying any background, claiming that we would be much worse off in the long run than we are tied to this customs union.

Perhaps on hindsight Little England was a bit OTT but some of the points put by Daniel Hannan l simply don't agree with.

On his first point there are more benefits to staying in the EU rather then being on the outside looking in in my book as pointed out in this article.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...u-9213131.html

Granted London is a great city to visit but its also become very expensive and for many people wanting to get on the housing ladder its simply way too expensive now as even with the living wage its still not enough to get even on the first rung of the ladder.

We are also reducing our Armed Forces at a time when the world is increasingly becoming a dangerous place and we don't even have a Aircraft Carrier until 2020.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ly-matter.html

Most of our sporting events have gone out of the reach of the working man as they have simply become too expensive for people to go to them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...f-hand-1527715

Den, what does the cost of living in London, our defence policy and the cost of a ticket to watch the football have to do with the EU? Seriously?

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by denphone

Perhaps on hindsight Little England was a bit OTT but some of the points put by Daniel Hannan l simply don't agree with.

On his first point there are more benefits to staying in the EU rather then being on the outside looking in in my book as pointed out in this article.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...u-9213131.html

Granted London is a great city to visit but its also become very expensive and for many people wanting to get on the housing ladder its simply way too expensive now as even with the living wage its still not enough to get even on the first rung of the ladder.

We are also reducing our Armed Forces at a time when the world is increasingly becoming a dangerous place and we don't even have a Aircraft Carrier until 2020.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ly-matter.html

Most of our sporting events have gone out of the reach of the working man as they have simply become too expensive for people to go to them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...f-hand-1527715

You need to add "Grasping at straws"

[Osem]

And all of that has happened while we're IN the EU hasn't it? It's a rather curious argument for EU membership then... God only knows how much worse it'd have been if we'd been in the Euro - that other well known sign of being properly in the 'club'...

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

You may wish to check Britain's record on trying to rule the world before you condemn Germany
.

Difference being we were actually good at it.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by denphone

We are also reducing our Armed Forces at a time when the world is increasingly becoming a dangerous place and we don't even have a Aircraft Carrier until 2020.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ly-matter.html

Other matters aside what does this have to do with the EU? How does our being in the EU assist with our defence and/or projection of military power?

As far as purely defensive matters go we have nuclear weapons and are a founder member of NATO.

As far as projecting power goes we have airbases throughout the world we can use via bilateral agreements, absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

The total lack of a converged response on things like Ukraine, Ebola and ISIL show how unfit for purpose the EU would be on these things as member states concern themselves with their own national interest first and foremost.

The EU is a collection of states that are too different economically, socially, culturally. The sooner people stop obsessing over trying to homogenise very different states on all these levels the better.

This wasn't actually as much of a problem originally but of course the EU decided to become aggressively expansionist with predictable results.

---------- Post added at 10:52 ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 ----------

Originally Posted by denphone

On his first point there are more benefits to staying in the EU rather then being on the outside looking in in my book as pointed out in this article.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...u-9213131.html

Written by a pretty serious Europhile.

Contrary to popular belief, EU membership doesn't cost us much, either. Our annual budget contribution, after taking account of money transferred back to the UK, is £8.3bn. That's around half a per cent of our GDP, or £130 per person.

It's half a percent of our GDP, but over 1% of our entire tax take, and would plug the funding gap for the NHS.

When the Confederation of British Industry surveyed its members in 2013, it found overwhelming support for Britain to stay in the EU among both big and small businesses: 78 per cent wanted to stay versus only 10 per cent wanting to quit.

Same CBI that wanted us to join the Euro and prophesied doom if we didn't. Ya.

We'd also have to negotiate with the EU, whose economy would be six times our size after we quit.

We buy more of their goods than they buy of ours. Regardless of whose economy is largest they have more to lose from being tools.

A good part of the rest of the article is operating on the presumption that the EU will, after following basically nothing but dogma for years, suddenly embrace common sense, after following protectionism embrace competition, and after embracing subsidy and 'solidarity' work on competitiveness.

There is absolutely no indication that any of this will happen. The EU occasionally makes the right noises but doesn't budge and remains an example to the rest of the world of how not to do things, which is why nowhere else has. Elsewhere free trade is free trade, not a political union complete with a parliament, a whole bunch of commissioners who propose the laws and who the public never get to vote for, and designs on becoming a superstate.

[Osem]

Look, it's a well known fact that if we leave the EU, the Germans, French, Italians etc. would immediately punish us by refusing to sell us all that lovely stuff they make and keep it all for themselves...

As I see it, the EU would be down the UK's net contribution to it and the remaining members would either have to pay more in, take less out or do both.

The EU in its current form is like a giant supertanker sailing off to a destination which doesn't want its cargo. Despite what he's being told, the Captain refuses to accept it and won't change course despite almost reaching the point of no return. Meantime some of the crew, sensing trouble's ahead and they're not gonna get paid, are getting increasingly frustrated and considering jumping ship.

[Ignitionnet]

It's really vital we stay attached to the EU as closely as possible so that we can emulate the success of Italy and France.

No link for France as their grief is well documented.

I would suggest that, rather than remaining in a political and customs union to subsidise their failure, we'd be way better off running towards the exit.

[deadite66]

To me the country has done well off the backs of the poor, stagnant wages, rising costs of goods and services and the huge rise in zero hour contracts.
This money should go back into the local community not for EU bureaucracy.

[Osem]

It's a measure of their stupidity and lemming like attitude that they appear more willing to 'carry on regardless' than accept any meaningful reform. The reality is that ever closer union doesn't work and that their dream of expansion is fast becoming a nightmare but does this change anything? Maybe one day the EU will be seen as one of the shortest lived 'empires' ever. I just hope it's not too late to unravel this mess without a further meltdown in which everyone's a loser.

---------- Post added at 13:33 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

Originally Posted by deadite66

To me the country has done well off the backs of the poor, stagnant wages, rising costs of goods and services and the huge rise in zero hour contracts.
This money should go back into the local community not for EU bureaucracy.

I'd rather see that than it go towards further propping up the Euro-bloatocracy.

[j52c]

Originally Posted by Osem

Look, it's a well known fact that if we leave the EU, the Germans, French, Italians etc. would immediately punish us by refusing to sell us all that lovely stuff they make and keep it all for themselves...

If we left the EU and they punished us by not selling their goods to us they would be the losers with lost trade, we buy more from Europe than we export to them.

Our biggest problem is that we sold many of our big companies to European owners. Just look at the huge profits the foreign energy suppliers are making and where does all that profit end up, back in their own countries, we are virtually subsiding the French and German energy industry. There a quite a few European companies getting Green Energy subsidies, which are the highest paid out in Europe, for building wind farms all over the place.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by j52c

If we left the EU and they punished us by not selling their goods to us they would be the losers with lost trade, we buy more from Europe than we export to them.

I know that, I was joking, hence the sarcastic

[Anonymouse]

According to the Times, Cameron's refusing to pay it. We shall see.

I wonder if this could be an excuse for the war the EU was allegedly set up to prevent between member states of Europe? If so, they'll get what they got in WW2 - a sound thrashing!

One question no-one has answered to my satisfaction: in terms of trading with European countries, why do we 'need' to be part of the EU? The States, Japan et al certainly aren't, and the EU doesn't mind trading with them. Why can't we go it alone?

The entire EU concept doesn't work and never did. The member countries are too different and have different cultures and economies - membership of the EU has not changed that fact in the slightest. The same would be true for the 'world government' so beloved to SF. As long as our culture is driven by the profit motive - the acquisition of wealth at all levels from individual up to government and/or corporations (if there's a difference!) - it can't work. Economic unity and free-trade capitalism are mutually exclusive; trading only works when the two or more parties have different goods to offer each other. If they're all the same, as the EU is trying (and failing, fortunately) to make them, there's no point in trading.

Only in a Star Trek type of world would unity have a chance - and even then we'd have to elect politicians who didn't want the job...because otherwise we'd end up with the harshest tyranny imaginable.