How big are VM's infills?

[MrIca]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Just done a bit of Googling Street View down the Middleton Ring Road and some surrounding roads. Nice area, by the way, just the kind of place that cablecos like to deal with!

Clearly there is ducting along the ring road and some streets. You can see where the ducts go up to each individual house. But as you say, its hit and miss. I personally don't think there is any cable in any of the ducts, or the ring road. There are clearly no cable street cabinets and I didn't see any BT street cabinets either. Do you have BT fibre services available in your area?

I think the street diggers "the Murphy Men", were given a whole area to dig and duct and so they started it as they saw fit, hence the ad hoc nature of it. Some roads have ducts, some don't.

I don't think the cableco ever had any oversight on the work being done or were ever involved at street level. At some point the money dried up and the work was abandoned.

If there was no oversight, it calls into question the quality of the work done and whether the ducts that were built are fit for purpose. What may have seemed a small task to begin with, could actually become something else, ie a total rebuild from scratch.

Someone from VM has got to go the area and have a look, assuming they don't already know what was done and not done. When all the cablecos started merging with one another, a lot of information was lost as people were laid off, so VM may not have accurate records for the area.

If the ducts that have been built are fine, I cannot see why VM wouldn't want to lay cable in the area and put in their street cabinets. The bulk of the work and cost is done.

Assuming a small takeup of services, say 10%, a 1000 homes paying about £40 a month, that's half a million quid a year in revenue being lost. No wonder all the old cablecos went bust. They were just crap.

But VM don't do FTTP, but you could point out that very fact to them. Not having to build a load of street cabinets is a big incentive. But I have never heard of VM even considering doing FTTP, so good luck on that one!

As for East London, a totally different situtation and its already been mentioned in the thread about the East London expansion why it wasn't done.

Basically, the area was/still is made up of a high immigrant population from Bangladesh and Pakistan. It is densely populated, the highest in the country. When the cableco started offering services in those areas it found out there was a very high number of "issues", like bills not being paid and theft of services. A very high number of issues... The cableco, Encom, never publicised this for fear of being branded racists, but those areas were abandoned for that reason. The poor quality ducting being given out as the official reason for not upgrading the areas is rubbish. By the way, although some of these areas have changed, most have not. So, VM will rediscover this is due course....

I can say at least here in an ex Nynex area these empty ducts are of very high quality, they also have multiple ducts running in and out of the various Nynex pavement boxes.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Clearly there is ducting along the ring road and some streets. You can see where the ducts go up to each individual house. But as you say, its hit and miss. I personally don't think there is any cable in any of the ducts, or the ring road. There are clearly no cable street cabinets and I didn't see any BT street cabinets either. Do you have BT fibre services available in your area?

Assuming a small takeup of services, say 10%, a 1000 homes paying about £40 a month, that's half a million quid a year in revenue being lost. No wonder all the old cablecos went bust. They were just crap.

But VM don't do FTTP, but you could point out that very fact to them. Not having to build a load of street cabinets is a big incentive. But I have never heard of VM even considering doing FTTP, so good luck on that one!

Dealing with these in turn.

I know there is no cable in the ducts. There is trunk fibre network cable running down the Ring Road and then along but nothing in the spurs off it going to the premises themselves.

There is Openreach FTTC here, I campaigned for it to cover this specific area. We currently don't have FTTC as we sold out the first 288 line cabinet and are waiting for a second one to be installed - take up of SFBB is >50%. In addition due to there being no TV aerials included with the properties penetration of Sky is >50% so most of the FTTC customers are likewise Sky tiple play. I have made these points to VM in the past in the hope that they will, at least, consider completing the duct builds around here even if they leave this specific small area uncovered.

A takeup of 10% isn't going to be close to enough to cover it. That's a loss of revenue but the initial costs were big. The cableco went under when they tried to build too much and borrowed too heavily to do it.

VM have been trialing FTTP on multiple occasions and in multiple sites. They have only trialed FTTP when assessing new ways to deliver. They're being cagey but there is no point in their building HFC to new builds as it is actually more expensive per home passed than FTTP now. Optics are cheaper, ONTs are cheaper, active plant is relatively expensive.

This thread is interesting.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Kinda attached - any idea if this got done?

http://outsizefiles.leeds.gov.uk/str...3A&CallerID=12

Closed off, but not on your map there. It looks as though there was going to be a build down Belle Isle Road, and you can happily trace the route.

Don't think it happened!

Google Street View says there is ducting and drop points to individual houses, beyond that, no idea!

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Google Street View says there is ducting and drop points to individual houses, beyond that, no idea!

Don't worry yourself about using Street View to check ducts and drops, the images I've attached to the the thread show those, they're what's in the ground according to VM.

The bits I don't know are what's in the ducts, merely that they are there.

[MrIca]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Dealing with these in turn.

I know there is no cable in the ducts. There is trunk fibre network cable running down the Ring Road and then along but nothing in the spurs off it going to the premises themselves.

There is Openreach FTTC here, I campaigned for it to cover this specific area. We currently don't have FTTC as we sold out the first 288 line cabinet and are waiting for a second one to be installed - take up of SFBB is >50%. In addition due to there being no TV aerials included with the properties penetration of Sky is >50% so most of the FTTC customers are likewise Sky tiple play. I have made these points to VM in the past in the hope that they will, at least, consider completing the duct builds around here even if they leave this specific small area uncovered.

A takeup of 10% isn't going to be close to enough to cover it. That's a loss of revenue but the initial costs were big. The cableco went under when they tried to build too much and borrowed too heavily to do it.

VM have been trialing FTTP on multiple occasions and in multiple sites. They have only trialed FTTP when assessing new ways to deliver. They're being cagey but there is no point in their building HFC to new builds as it is actually more expensive per home passed than FTTP now. Optics are cheaper, ONTs are cheaper, active plant is relatively expensive.

This thread is interesting.

I know what you're saying about FTTP and it makes sense. But there are about 3 new builds round here (in last year or so), anf they have used HFC. Interestingly all of the new estates in this area built by large, nationwide house builders haven't had any kind of VM service installed. It's only in estates built by local or regional builders.

I worked for Bell CableMedia during the mid-90s, and what Horizon said about Encom was true (I spent 9 months in Docklands trying to sort out their billing system issues).

There were a reasonable percentage of customers who would get a telephone installed into a property (which was allegedly sub-let from someone else, for 'deniability' purposes), and who would then let lots of others use the phones for long-distance calls (taking money from them for these).

This was before real-time call billing was available....

[MrIca]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

.

VM have been trialing FTTP on multiple occasions and in multiple sites. They have only trialed FTTP when assessing new ways to deliver. They're being cagey but there is no point in their building HFC to new builds as it is actually more expensive per home passed than FTTP now. Optics are cheaper, ONTs are cheaper, active plant is relatively expensive.

This thread is interesting.

Indeed, that thread is very interesting. I'll keep an eye on it and agree that it would appear that VM are using FTTP in that area, reinforces it that phone service won't be offered. This could be what we end up with in the new additions in London too.

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

VM have been trialing FTTP on multiple occasions and in multiple sites. They have only trialed FTTP when assessing new ways to deliver. They're being cagey but there is no point in their building HFC to new builds as it is actually more expensive per home passed than FTTP now. Optics are cheaper, ONTs are cheaper, active plant is relatively expensive.

This thread is interesting.

I was aware of FTTP trials a few years ago, but ISPreview are saying several different things have started in the last few weeks. Interesting indeed.

But for those of us who have the "bog standard" cable tv network, we mustn't delude ourselves that VM will come along and rip everything out and install FTTP instead, because they won't. Plenty of sweat to get out of the existing assets first...

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Anyone know if VM have ever sold ducts?
.

Yes, lease usually, but on very long term leases. But this would be for core routes and not access network.

All the carriers lease and swap infrastructure.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Horizon

I was aware of FTTP trials a few years ago, but ISPreview are saying several different things have started in the last few weeks. Interesting indeed.

But for those of us who have the "bog standard" cable tv network, we mustn't delude ourselves that VM will come along and rip everything out and install FTTP instead, because they won't. Plenty of sweat to get out of the existing assets first...

No. The HFC will receive a staged upgrade eventually to DOCSIS 3.1 running over FTTLA, so optical nodes with launch amplifier and pretty much no further amplification, before replacement of the coax altogether.

FTTLA means higher signal fidelity and easier upgrades, no trunk or bridge amps and very, very few line extenders. Also means lower power bills and maintenance for VM, not having to line power amplifiers but just use mains for the nodes and no further active components to maintain.

---------- Post added at 18:56 ---------- Previous post was at 18:55 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yes, lease usually, but on very long term leases. But this would be for core routes and not access network.

All the carriers lease and swap infrastructure.

Indeed - I have been told it's not going to happen, with the caveat that VM may decide to use those ducts for builds.

[MrIca]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

No. The HFC will receive a staged upgrade eventually to DOCSIS 3.1 running over FTTLA, so optical nodes with launch amplifier and pretty much no further amplification, before replacement of the coax altogether.

FTTLA means higher signal fidelity and easier upgrades, no trunk or bridge amps and very, very few line extenders. Also means lower power bills and maintenance for VM, not having to line power amplifiers but just use mains for the nodes and no further active components to maintain.

---------- Post added at 18:56 ---------- Previous post was at 18:55 ----------



Indeed - I have been told it's not going to happen, with the caveat that VM may decide to use those ducts for builds.

Makes sense. They've got an old empty NYNEX duct here running for 3 miles which links into their network at one end but doesn't go anywhere at the other. I can see the point of it would have been to link another town (where it finishes) into their network and then the build stopped. There must be a few of these empty, fairly long core network routes.

I wonder if VM even have them in their databases, they'd be useful for linking 3G and 4G backhaul for the likes of MBNL nowadays.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by MrIca

I wonder if VM even have them in their databases, they'd be useful for linking 3G and 4G backhaul for the likes of MBNL nowadays.

VM already provide the backhaul infrastructure for MBNL.

So I'm pretty sure that if those opportunities existed, they would have already been investigated.

[MrIca]

Originally Posted by Pierre

VM already provide the backhaul infrastructure for MBNL.

So I'm pretty sure that if those opportunities existed, they would have already been investigated.

You've missed my point entirely. I know they provide the backhaul for MBNL (that's why I specifically mentioned them). What I'm saying is I wonder whether they know about all of these half finished ducts they have? I've heard their records are not very good and I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of empty ducts they aren't even aware of.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by MrIca

You've missed my point entirely. I know they provide the backhaul for MBNL (that's why I specifically mentioned them). What I'm saying is I wonder whether they know about all of these half finished ducts they have? I've heard their records are not very good and I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of empty ducts they aren't even aware of.

The duct records seem okay; the deficiency at least when I was working for them regarded what, if anything, was in the ducts in question.

[nodrogd]

Info on the East London network expansion has just been posted on the VM community forum, along with a postcode checker:

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/...-p/2431339#M36