TA/SAS soldiers die in training

Osem · 15-07-2013, 17:26

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One of the two soldiers who died during SAS selection training in the Brecon Beacons in Powys has been named by the Ministry of Defence as Lance Corporal Craig Roberts.

The 24-year-old from Penrhyn Bay, Conwy, and his fellow reservist died on the hottest day of the year in Wales.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-23311651

Such a tragedy. RIP.

Heard a radio presenter questioning whether or not the training really needed to be 'this tough'. The answer from the former military man went along the lines of how did she think our soldiers would cope in combat in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, the Falklands etc. without such tough training? Bit of a silly question I reckon.

**Damien** · 15-07-2013, 17:35

I don't think it's a silly question. The fact that two died not one suggests that it was too tough or they didn't take into proper account the hydration of the soldiers. One dying is tragic but can happen, two strongly suggests that it was the training that did it and it was too much for a soldier to do.

Taf · 15-07-2013, 19:23

I was dragged off the Beacons in '73 after heatstroke hit me during an RAF hike in full kit.

Sirius · 15-07-2013, 19:30

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Originally Posted by Taf

I was dragged off the Beacons in '73 after heatstroke hit me during an RAF hike in full kit.

I did escape and evasion on there as part of my prone to capture training and it was like hell of earth. Did it right in the middle of the summer 1982.

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:28 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think it's a silly question. The fact that two died not one suggests that it was too tough or they didn't take into proper account the hydration of the soldiers. One dying is tragic but can happen, two strongly suggests that it was the training that did it and it was too much for a soldier to do.

The problem is if this was part of the SAS selection that is done on there you have to push people to the edge to see if they have the right stuff. There will be a full investigation you can bet.

R.I.P to those who dies and my condolences to there friends and family

15-07-2013, 19:33

I am sure they knew the risks if you want to be the best and all that. But of course it is still a terrible thing to happen

Taf · 15-07-2013, 19:37

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Originally Posted by Sirius

I did escape and evasion on there as part of my prone to capture training and it was like hell of earth. Did it right in the middle of the summer 1982.

Before I collapsed, we had passed several blokes toodling around in all weathers in just their underpants... they were SAS trainees from Hereford.

Sirius · 15-07-2013, 19:52

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Originally Posted by Taf

Before I collapsed, we had passed several blokes toodling around in all weathers in just their underpants... they were SAS trainees from Hereford.

They had us doing silly things like that including standing naked with a bag on your head in stress positions with your hands tied. All this whilst being humiliated by a couple of WRAC's doing the interrogation

---------- Post added at 20:52 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

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Originally Posted by tizmeinnit

I am sure they knew the risks if you want to be the best and all that. But of course it is still a terrible thing to happen

If you want to be the best you do the hardest test there is and that is SAS selection. Many try and many fail.

Osem · 15-07-2013, 20:10

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Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think it's a silly question. The fact that two died not one suggests that it was too tough or they didn't take into proper account the hydration of the soldiers. One dying is tragic but can happen, two strongly suggests that it was the training that did it and it was too much for a soldier to do.

I do. I'm pretty certain the training did it so I'm not doubting that. As Sirius and Taf can testify, the point is that military training has to be tough and if it isn't the result is that more recruits die when they can't perform in the field. One of the reasons our forces are some of the best in the world is that their training is so tough. These guys could well be sent to places like Iraq in the middle of scorching heat, having to carry weapons, kit, wounded colleagues etc. They need to be tough to do that and some will get hurt or worse in the process. It was ever thus in the forces. If it turns out that the training wasn't executed properly for some reason that's a different matter but the question asked was 'is the training too tough?'.

Arthurgray50@blu · 15-07-2013, 20:11

I understand the weather conditions are far higher than Brecon Beacons in far eastern countries, and therefore essential to the training.

However, what l would like to see is a bit of 'due care' from their commanding officers, with things like additional 'water holes' along the way.

To be an SAS officer you have to be fitter than the fittest, this was a tragic accident, but feel that the commanding officers could be a 'easier' as it is training etc.
Yes, it is a tough course, but the Amry still have a duty of care to there officers.
RIP to the brave guys, who only wanted to be the tough 'who dares wins' beret.

Osem · 15-07-2013, 20:36

Just watching a documentary about suicides amongst our brave troops. I must say that some of what I'm hearing about their treatment and the lack of support is shocking and a disgrace.

**Damien** · 15-07-2013, 21:21

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Originally Posted by Osem

I do. I'm pretty certain the training did it so I'm not doubting that. As Sirius and Taf can testify, the point is that military training has to be tough and if it isn't the result is that more recruits die when they can't perform in the field. One of the reasons our forces are some of the best in the world is that their training is so tough. These guys could well be sent to places like Iraq in the middle of scorching heat, having to carry weapons, kit, wounded colleagues etc. They need to be tough to do that and some will get hurt or worse in the process. It was ever thus in the forces. If it turns out that the training wasn't executed properly for some reason that's a different matter but the question asked was 'is the training too tough?'.

Fair enough. In this case something seems, at first impressions, to have gone drastically wrong. One person dying is a tragic accident, two people suggests it was too hard in this case. After all most of the time people do not die, it's very rare, so to have two at once should raise concerns.

SMG · 15-07-2013, 22:46

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Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

I understand the weather conditions are far higher than Brecon Beacons in far eastern countries, and therefore essential to the training.

However, what l would like to see is a bit of 'due care' from their commanding officers, with things like additional 'water holes' along the way.

To be an SAS officer you have to be fitter than the fittest, this was a tragic accident, but feel that the commanding officers could be a 'easier' as it is training etc.
Yes, it is a tough course, but the Amry still have a duty of care to there officers.
RIP to the brave guys, who only wanted to be the tough 'who dares wins' beret.

You are quite right. I have known such men, they will die before admit defeat, to me, there is no question they continued when they should have stopped. They have one aim, to complete the mission, everything else is secondary. I do think there should be more checkpoints with guys being assessed as to their condition, &, as "P" troop, guys being binned if their condition cannot can not meet the requirements. But we have lost 2 fine, brave, & determined men, & we can only praise their efforts, & send condolences to the families. RIP lads.

Osem · 14-07-2015, 11:36

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Three reservists who died on an SAS selection march would have survived if the hike had been stopped when other soldiers fell ill, a coroner has said.

Coroner Louise Hunt ruled L/Cpl Edward Maher, L/Cpl Craig Roberts and Cpl James Dunsby died as a result of neglect.

All three suffered the effects of hyperthermia. The Brecon Beacons march was held on one of 2013's hottest days.

Ms Hunt said a failure of basic medical care contributed to their deaths.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-33512416

Almost exactly 2 years after the event, let's hope the required lessons have already be learned. We expect so much of brave men like this that the least they can expect is proper medical care and prompt intervention when things go wrong. These deaths were unnecessary and the best we can hope for is that there will be no more in similar circumstances.

mrmistoffelees · 15-07-2015, 14:33

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Originally Posted by Damien

Fair enough. In this case something seems, at first impressions, to have gone drastically wrong. One person dying is a tragic accident, two people suggests it was too hard in this case. After all most of the time people do not die, it's very rare, so to have two at once should raise concerns.

Too hard???? You are aware I presume what the SAS are trained and deployed to do?

Bravo Two Zero - The tale of one man who gave in because it was 'Too hard'

What next? replace live firing exercises with nerf guns???