Will NTL ever catch up with Sky?

[Neil]

Originally Posted by themelon

I cant honestly see why ntl wouldnt have it, it would be pure stupidity for them not to offer a service that they can offer, as they will lose customers.

Likelyhood is it will be the Sky end playing up as usual. I cant really see what negotiations need to be done really...........its part of the Sky Sports package we should get it, pure and simple. If its not part of the Sky Sports package it should be an optional extra to Sky Sports users on Digital Satellite too.

If Sky are causing the problem here (by asking extortionate amounts of money from the cable companies for example), then all ntl have to do is communicate that to their customers.

People have been asking as long as I can remember for full red button interactivity that fully mirrors what Sky Digital customers get.

The silence from ntl makes me think that this 'issue' lies on ntl's side rather than Sky's, I can't see any other reason for it.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Neil

If Sky are causing the problem here (by asking extortionate amounts of money from the cable companies for example), then all ntl have to do is communicate that to their customers.

People have been asking as long as I can remember for full red button interactivity that fully mirrors what Sky Digital customers get.

The silence from ntl makes me think that this 'issue' lies on ntl's side rather than Sky's, I can't see any other reason for it.

It doesn't necessarily indicate that at all. Even if NTL have done something good for their customers, they are often incapable of communicating the fact..

[themelon]

Originally Posted by Neil

If Sky are causing the problem here (by asking extortionate amounts of money from the cable companies for example), then all ntl have to do is communicate that to their customers.

People have been asking as long as I can remember for full red button interactivity that fully mirrors what Sky Digital customers get.

The silence from ntl makes me think that this 'issue' lies on ntl's side rather than Sky's, I can't see any other reason for it.

They did communicate it to us over a year ago (I think) I recieved a letter stating they were in negotiations with Sky over bringing Sky Active style services to cable, this was just after BMR1.

So presumably these negotiations are still on going, presumably Sky are not wishing to pay for Space on ntl, yet the are willing to pay SES Astra to space to get more customers on their platform............Interesting.........and Anti Competative.

If Skys Content and Service provider divisions were seperated this is something that wouldnt happen, Sky Sports has other motives, to get Sky Digital more customers. Sky Sports core business should be to get as many customers for Sky Sports.........no matter what the platform.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by scastle

It doesn't necessarily indicate that at all. Even if NTL have done something good for their customers, they are often incapable of communicating the fact..

That's the point I was making.

[ikthius]

Originally Posted by themelon

Sky Sports core business should be to get as many customers for Sky Sports.........no matter what the platform.

Originally Posted by Neil

That's the point I was making.

you were not really making this point though

ik

[ian@huth]

One thing that doesn't appear to have been considered is whether the Sky Sports streams that Sky uses can be run on NTL. Presumably the streams contain instructions for the Sky digibox to take advantage of them which may render them unusable with NTLs software. If that is the case then would it be Sky or NTL that would have to modify the streams (if this is possible) to be able to make them available via NTL. Who would bear the cost of this if it is possible?

[themelon]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

One thing that doesn't appear to have been considered is whether the Sky Sports streams that Sky uses can be run on NTL. Presumably the streams contain instructions for the Sky digibox to take advantage of them which may render them unusable with NTLs software. If that is the case then would it be Sky or NTL that would have to modify the streams (if this is possible) to be able to make them available via NTL. Who would bear the cost of this if it is possible?

Well the streams must originally be in a standard video format, so could be distributed as that.

As I say, Im not too fussed about the multiscreen, just the extra matches, which after all our subscriptions (to Sky Sports as a channel) did help buy.

I think all cable subscribers unsubscribing, and perhaps getting a season ticket to you local team will drill the message home to Sky.......hit them where it hurts with profits and maybe they will take notice.

I probably will in the new year.

[Neil]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

One thing that doesn't appear to have been considered is whether the Sky Sports streams that Sky uses can be run on NTL. Presumably the streams contain instructions for the Sky digibox to take advantage of them which may render them unusable with NTLs software. If that is the case then would it be Sky or NTL that would have to modify the streams (if this is possible) to be able to make them available via NTL. Who would bear the cost of this if it is possible?

Which comes back to my original point of "which side does the problem lie on-Sky's reluctance to give it to ntl, or ntl's network having an inabilty to cope with it?"

I actually think it's both, I think Sky want to hold on to it as it gives their product an edge over the cable companies (they developed it, so why not?), & I also think that ntl's network can't handle it (I should say that's what I was told last time I was in ntl Hook)

[Tristan]

Originally Posted by ianathuth

One thing that doesn't appear to have been considered is whether the Sky Sports streams that Sky uses can be run on NTL. Presumably the streams contain instructions for the Sky digibox to take advantage of them which may render them unusable with NTLs software. If that is the case then would it be Sky or NTL that would have to modify the streams (if this is possible) to be able to make them available via NTL. Who would bear the cost of this if it is possible?

Actually, the existing four Sky Sports channels are sent uncompressed along a cable from Sky HQ to Langley, where NTL encode and multiplex them themselves. This is done to ensure the best quality picture at the end. That's not to say that the other 8 channels would have to be done that way though. As they'd be used only once or twice a week, NTL could conceivably just take them off the satellite as they do with scores of other channels.

And no, the video is just standard DVB(-S, converted to DVB-C very easily). There would also be an interactive datastream for the Sky box, but this would just be ignored. Someone would need to write a Liberate version of it. On satellite, this is always the job of the broadcaster, so that's another cost that Sky would most likely be unwilling to meet.

What it comes down to is that it's perfectly possible to do, if Sky are willing to pay for it. And if you were a businessman, would you spend a lot of money for zero return, do your biggest rival a favour, and lose on of your own USPs?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Neil

That's the point I was making.

True, you did appear to be making the point about NTL not communicating. However, that does not necessarily indicate that NTL's network can not handle Sky's interactive parts.

[themelon]

Originally Posted by Neil

I actually think it's both, I think Sky want to hold on to it as it gives their product an edge over the cable companies (they developed it, so why not?), & I also think that ntl's network can't handle it (I should say that's what I was told last time I was in ntl Hook)

I dont see any reason why ntl cannot just have the channels.........sod the interactive.

This highlights what is wrong! Why should Sky be able to use Sky Sports to sell Sky Digital? Sky Sports is partially funded by Cable susbcriptions.

Sky Digital the platform and Sky Sports the Channel should be seperate entities without hidden agendas (ie more subscribers for Sky).

The Channel should make money in its way selling its product, on an indiscrimate basis to whichever providers are willing to pay for it.

Sky Digital should making money by being a service provider, and channels with rights that have been supported in funding by cable subscribers should not be exclusive.

If Sky does not wish to play fair, the Cable football rights should be given to ntl or someone else to give their customers a fair deal.

[ian@huth]

After over 50 posts we are still no wiser about why NTL does not have multi screen football on Sky Sports. Perhaps we should wait until someone that knows the answer gives it to us. Some people are very quick to say it's all Skys fault whilst others blame anything that goes wrong on NTL. Wonder if Sam B has the answer?

[andygrif]

Blimey, this one's going round in so many circles, I'm feeling dizzy!

Originally Posted by themelon

So presumably these negotiations are still on going, presumably Sky are not wishing to pay for Space on ntl, yet the are willing to pay SES Astra to space to get more customers on their platform............Interesting.........and Anti Competative.

Let's assume you're correct and this about ntl trying to charge Sky for interactive content delivery:

1. It wouldn't be the first time I have heard of ntl overpricing its carraige fees.

2. It is still (compared to watching telly) a niche service, and probably not worth Sky paying for. This is especially true when the platform it would be delivered on is so flaky most people don't bother with it.

3. They don't pay SES Astra for interactive carraige. They pay for bandwidth, the platform (which is used by many people and therefore worthwhile) is owned by Sky.

I would agree that the fact that they have not put the interactive services on cable could be seen to be in the attempt to attract more customers to its own service, and there could be some truth in that, but I would suspect that it has a lot to do with compatability and cost.

Originally Posted by scastle

True, you did appear to be making the point about NTL not communicating. However, that does not necessarily indicate that NTL's network can not handle Sky's interactive parts.

I'm not sure it could handle it to be honest. The Olympics multiscreen rarely worked for me, it crashed the box more often than it worked, and the one time it did work, I couldn't get out of it without pulling the power!

Originally Posted by Tristan

And no, the video is just standard DVB(-S, converted to DVB-C very easily). There would also be an interactive datastream for the Sky box, but this would just be ignored. Someone would need to write a Liberate version of it. On satellite, this is always the job of the broadcaster, so that's another cost that Sky would most likely be unwilling to meet.

I think you're right on this, there would be little point in Sky paying for a service that would probably only end up making itself look bad too (if it crashed as often as the example above). There could be an argument for a return on investment using the red button for voting, but I seriously doubt the numbers of people that would use it in its current state would justify the expense.

Originally Posted by Neil

I actually think it's both, I think Sky want to hold on to it as it gives their product an edge over the cable companies (they developed it, so why not?), & I also think that ntl's network can't handle it (I should say that's what I was told last time I was in ntl Hook)

I think you're right too! IMHO (not through any kind of special knowledge) I really think that ntl got itself a white elephant with the current digital box setup. They didn't put enough thought into it in the first place, and now people can see that it is inferior to both of the other DTV interactive services.

I don't know if this is possible, but for a layman such as I, it would appear sensible for ntl to just become a carraige business and then we could plug a Sky box into the ntl cable. Crazy or not?

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by andygrif

<snip>

I'm not sure it could handle it to be honest. The Olympics multiscreen rarely worked for me, it crashed the box more often than it worked, and the one time it did work, I couldn't get out of it without pulling the power!



<snip>

Mine worked - I think the issue was the actual stb rather than the network...

[Neil]

Originally Posted by orangebird

Mine worked - I think the issue was the actual stb rather than the network...

That's just the problem though, red button stuff on ntl is a very hit & miss affair (which compounds my thoughts about the network not being up to the job)

It would appear as if it works some of the time for some people, but for others it just crashes the boxes, & that can't be an issue on Sky's side.