Eurozone will collapse...

[Sirius]

If they let them collapse it could just be the start

Cyprus collapsing wouldn't be big enough to bring the Euro down. It would set a precedent but not many would want to follow...

[mertle]

agreed cant see cyprus raising further 6bn unless they raid uk cyprus branches that got exempt the coalition would not like that after the deal they did to get them exempt.


Interesting piece from Austria.

Cant argue we should sort our mess out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...inister-uk-tax

Maria Fekter said the EU cannot force Austria to reform its banking secrecy laws without also forcing the UK to crack down on tax havens in its jurisdiction

Seems Austria next in line it seems.

They right hope government do something to sort it out. Otherwise this could turn ugly or embarrising depending how osbourne, cameron how they respond on our issue.

Luxembourg, the only other EU country that had refused to share information on its offshore savers, capitulated on Wednesday and said it would comply with rules by 2015.

Why possible 2015 whats luxembourg upto trying to help its customers move it to another tax haven?

Originally Posted by Damien

Cyprus collapsing wouldn't be big enough to bring the Euro down. It would set a precedent but not many would want to follow...

"want" isn't so much the issue. Once the Euro is shown to be reversible its credibility is holed below the water line and its demise becomes a matter of when, rather than if.

Originally Posted by Chris

"want" isn't so much the issue. Once the Euro is shown to be reversible its credibility is holed below the water line and its demise becomes a matter of when, rather than if.

I don't think it's necessarily a matter of when. It may prove to be reversible but it would involve a lot of pain and the circumstances extreme. I can't imagine France for example wanting to bring back the Franc. If some of the other countries do leave the Eurozone and it's subsequently reformed then it could emerge stronger...

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think it's necessarily a matter of when. It may prove to be reversible but it would involve a lot of pain and the circumstances extreme. I can't imagine France for example wanting to bring back the Franc. If some of the other countries do leave the Eurozone and it's subsequently reformed then it could emerge stronger...

I think it's Germany that should leave the Euro and let the remainder of the Zone get on with it...
Once Germany is out I think it would be much easier for the others due to similar-ish economic strength.The way it is right now Germany expects everybody else to implement or closely copy their economic model and that just isn't feasible,and most certainly for many downright undesirable.

I guess the German government set itself and the German economy up as the winners in all of this but then they might as well just have won the war. It's part of the German psyche,their inherent fault,to always want to win and be the best no matter the cost.... I guess that can be an advantage but all too often it seems rather a negative trait,a trait that once more threatens to divide and destroy Europe... what good is being the best if you have no friends left?

So,if Germany gets it's Deutsche Mark back and the rest of the Euro-zone could have a much weaker Euro then the balance may once more be restored,maybe?

[mertle]

Originally Posted by Will21st

I think it's Germany that should leave the Euro and let the remainder of the Zone get on with it...
Once Germany is out I think it would be much easier for the others due to similar-ish economic strength.The way it is right now Germany expects everybody else to implement or closely copy their economic model and that just isn't feasible,and most certainly for many downright undesirable.

I guess the German government set itself and the German economy up as the winners in all of this but then they might as well just have won the war. It's part of the German psyche,their inherent fault,to always want to win and be the best no matter the cost.... I guess that can be an advantage but all too often it seems rather a negative trait,a trait that once more threatens to divide and destroy Europe... what good is being the best if you have no friends left?

So,if Germany gets it's Deutsche Mark back and the rest of the Euro-zone could have a much weaker Euro then the balance may once more be restored,maybe?

Soros said this too germany should leave the Euro. Makes sense let smaller countries sort themselves out with euro bonds.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/n...s-or-euro-exit

full speech here below

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...-crisis-speech

Soros right he sounds like wants stimulus programme yes dont like way he makes money but if bound holder now tell ing germany its austerity programme wrong they better start listening.

I guess the German government set itself and the German economy up as the winners in all of this but then they might as well just have won the war. It's part of the German psyche,their inherent fault,to always want to win and be the best no matter the cost.... I guess that can be an advantage but all too often it seems rather a negative trait,a trait that once more threatens to divide and destroy Europe... what good is being the best if you have no friends left?

The German psyche is no more controlling or dominating than others. It always amuses me when people bring that up, usually in connection with the war, conveniently forgetting that one of the biggest Empires that the world has ever known was British. We came, we saw, we conquered and took their resources. The Germans aspire for power no more than we do. It's also pretty faulty logic to assume such traits are genetically passed down the generations. Countries use the circumstances to their advantage and we do the same.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Damien

The German psyche is no more controlling or dominating than others.

No offence Damien,I was raised in Germany from the age of 6 and had a German step-dad who's father came back from the Eastern Front a paranoid schizophrenic who,in his clearer moments,told me why he went to war and what it was about for him and his fellow soldiers.

I've lived and worked among the Krauts and rest assured it is inherent to the German spirit to win and dominate,and to a bloody fault indeed. National Socialism didn't happen to the Germans by coincidence,but rather to a Nation that has looked up to and believed in superior authority emanating from a single leader/ruler for over a Thousand Years....
A Nation that has an inherent inferiority complex since it only really came into existence as a whole in 1871 and secretly felt that it was lacking in relation to other countries and their achievements.

quite frankly,Germany has only had Democracy for a tad over sixty years and they're still just warming to it. Just look at what happened to the Weimar Republic and how miserably that failed.

It's no accident that Germany once more is in a position where other's must bow to it's model and way of life.

There is a saying in German : 'Am Deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen.'

the German spirit shall heal the world.... in German it's even more ominous and many Germans do believe their system and way of Life to be the best. Well,it is a good system in many ways but in many other's doesn't leave much room for compromise,which is now visible in it's dealings with the Eurozone.

Originally Posted by Damien

It always amuses me when people bring that up, usually in connection with the war, conveniently forgetting that one of the biggest Empires that the world has ever known was British. We came, we saw, we conquered and took their resources.

Well,but Britain also spread Democracy,spread it's educational system,helped build economies and did indeed found that Commonwealth that many countries today are happy to be a member of. The Empire did a lot of good as well as some bad.
What however wasn't the case was that the British believed that they were so much better than anybody else that other's must bow to it's bloody regime of fear and accept the King as the Leader,the one and only.And MOST CERTAINLY did Britain not make out one race or religion that was so inferior that it must be killed on an Industrial scale and wiped off the face of the earth.....

Originally Posted by Damien

The Germans aspire for power no more than we do. It's also pretty faulty logic to assume such traits are genetically passed down the generations. Countries use the circumstances to their advantage and we do the same.

Who's talking genetics? I'm talking about psychological traits and patterns that do indeed get passed on from generation to generation,and every Nation has inherent strengths and weaknesses...

British are great at Music,French do Cuisine,Italians design and Germans are top Engineers.... just like people,and Nation's are indeed the sums of their people,we all have our little strengths.

and yes,everyone tries to use circumstances to their advantage but with Germans it just always seems like they alienate everybody else to the extreme while doing so.

Originally Posted by Will21st

I've lived and worked among the Krauts and rest assured it is inherent to the German spirit to win and dominate,and to a bloody fault indeed. National Socialism didn't happen to the Germans by coincidence,but rather to a Nation that has looked up to and believed in superior authority emanating from a single leader/ruler for over a Thousand Years....

We have the Monarch and several references littered to God in our society. We too have the concept of a superior authority. I also think that it being inherent to win and dominate is rather vague, it seems a natural part of the human condition, and still no real basis on which to assume that Germany are especially bad for it. Again British History is rife with war, competition, oppression and domination.

Well,but Britain also spread Democracy,spread it's educational system,helped build economies and did indeed found that Commonwealth that many countries today are happy to be a member of. The Empire did a lot of good as well as some bad.

We tend to overstate the positive and minimise the negative. Assuming we brought Democracy to the world is rather tricky, we tended to get kicked out of places for a lack of it, even if the subsequent Democracies were inspired by us afterwards. Let's not forget the pillaging of resources, the concentration camps, or the massacres. Whatever we may tell ourselves it's clear that the British Empire is not remembered with fondness amongst many of it's people.

Anyway my point isn't to say the British Empire was the moral equivalent of Nazi Germany, it clearly wasn't, but it does show a historic trait to dominate and invade other countries. If we're accusing Germany of having those characteristics then we have to apply them to ourselves. Interestingly you seem to be defending our Empire on the basis it did a lot of good. We may have invaded them but we improved them, sounds rather controlling to me, like we know best, it's almost socialist .

Basically it's a bit rich for a British person to accuse other nations of being dominating. Someone who wasn't British would think it's a remarkably audacious accusation for us to make.

What however wasn't the case was that the British believed that they were so much better than anybody else that other's must bow to it's bloody regime of fear and accept the King as the Leader,the one and only.And MOST CERTAINLY did Britain not make out one race or religion that was so inferior that it must be killed on an Industrial scale and wiped off the face of the earth.....

Well we clearly did have ideas of our own importance. We didn't want to wipe out an entire race of course, that is a particular kind of evil that I don't think we can say was a product of Hitler's time in Germany. Anti-Semitism was prevalent across Europe of course

Who's talking genetics? I'm talking about psychological traits and patterns that do indeed get passed on from generation to generation,and every Nation has inherent strengths and weaknesses...

British are great at Music,French do Cuisine,Italians design and Germans are top Engineers.... just like people,and Nation's are indeed the sums of their people,we all have our little strengths.

It can be partly true but these are rather broad stereotypes. You need to look at the reasons why countries remain strong at certain tasks. British Music is helped by the sheer volume of acts for people to follow and be inspired by as well and the benefit of the language.

How has a Germany desire to dominate being passed down? If anything the horror of their history has calmed any such desire. Also why wasn't it passed down amongst the English?

Negative stereotypes cloud our judgement.

[Osem]

I suspect the stereotypes of which you speak are found on both sides and the extent to which they're positive or negative is subjective.

[Osem]

The troika of international creditors to Greece has said the country's economy will start growing again next year and it will be able to contain its debts.

The troika, which includes the European Commission, the European Central Bank (ECB) and International Monetary Fund (IMF), said the next slice of financial support would be released soon

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22151472

Hmm... I hope these people have been a bit more diligent in checking the facts than those who were responsible for checking Greece's books prior to admission to the Eurozone.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...sing-says.html

These would be the same people that forecast Portugal was on its way to growth. That's Portugal, which still has a massive hole in its finances and is not so far off asking for another bail-out.

[Osem]

You're not suggesting they're putting a bit of a 'gloss' on things are you?

I'm sure it's for our own good anyway, these people know best after all...

[mertle]

Now germany proposing Asset Tax.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...bail-outs.html

suprised this figures here is the median wealth nations shame uks not in would love to find ours to compare.

The ECB study found that the “median” wealth in Cyprus is €267,000 (£227,600), compared to just €51,000 in Germany.


The median or midpoint level – which strips out the distorting effect of the super-rich – was €183,000 for Spain, €172,000 for Italy, and €102,000 for Greece, and even €75,000 for Portugal.
Average wealth in Cyprus is €671,000, far higher than in the four AAA creditor states: Austria (€265,000), Germany (€195,000), Holland (€170,000), Finland (€161,000).

No wonder with that figures germany did push for haircut.