Doesn't go far enough

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Police can't be made redundant.

They may not replace anymore police when they retire, but policeman and women will not receive a P45 in the post.

To use the phrase "redundant" is an attempt use an emotive word.

---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 ----------



Well instead of gambling, produce some facts.

Ok rafa

http://www.london24.com/news/crime/cuts_in_metropolitan_police_staff_labelled_a_panic _measure_1_1699040



http://www.unison.org.uk/policeandjustice/pages_view.asp?did=12477

In both of those links, police staff are being made redundant, not police officers.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

In both of those links, police staff are being made redundant, not police officers.

Yes, that's the point I was making, that it's now police officers doing the backroom roles instead of being out catching crooks and they're on twice the cash, still as long as some shyster politician can look down a camera and say they haven't cut any front line police officers.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Yes, that's the point I was making, that it's now police officers doing the backroom roles instead of being out catching crooks and they're on twice the cash, still as long as some shyster politician can look down a camera and say they haven't cut any front line police officers.

Same happening in the MOD, civilian positions have been cut but there is a noticeable increase of people dressed in green filling these positions.

The bigger issue with MOD posts is they are generally an 18 month postings. In my experience soldiers generally have one goal and that's promotion, and they will use the posting to enhance their promotional prospects. This can mean that long term issues are brushed under the carpet to concentrate on simple non-issues that are achievable in the timescale to make themselves look good.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Police can't be made redundant.

They may not replace anymore police when they retire, but policeman and women will not receive a P45 in the post.

Yet. Except part of the 'independent' winsor report includes the option for Police officers to be subject to compulsary severance aka. redundancy.

The only difference is in name to exclude Police officers from claiming the same rights other employees have.

And as others have mentioned there are more and more civilian posts being made redundant, the work doesn't disappear and there are only so many officers on light duties so front line officers are being shunted into offices to take up the slack.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by martyh

but you can't look at absolute numbers can you ?.That link is based on one interpretation ,give those figures to 10 other people and you will get 10 more interpretations .IDS is absolutely right in attacking the tax credit system, it is responsible for a lot of hardship ,doesn't work ,is over complicated ,expensive to run and unneeded .There are better and more efficient ways to put money into peoples pockets that doesn't involve putting half the working population on benefits .In short that the tax credit system needs to go

what are better ways?

the tax credit system is no more complex than the income tax system. I think this complexity word is been used cheaply to try and get rid of any public expenditure that helps the poor.

either way you distracting from the point they lied.

---------- Post added at 08:52 ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Debt isn't the problem. We're likely always going to be in debt and that's ok.

The deficit is the problem but how to deal with it is where the disagreement is. You can cut as much as you can but you don't want to harm growth, the deficit will be a lot higher if unemployment is high and income is low. When the economy recovers we'll hopefully see benefits drop and tax income rise. That will be a lot more effective that cutting on the margins.

India is being cut out anyway but Foreign aid is such a negligible amount of our spending, it's become a smokescreen.

We all know where the real spending is, that's the elderly and pensions followed by healthcare. The Government should be more aggressive in raising the pension age.

some good valid points made there.

The pension spending I agree with, its simply huge. But it wont get touched in any way other than raising the pension age or making existing taxpayers get a private pension, they wont cut existing pensioners, political suicide. the sick and vulnerable of working age and young unemployed even tho they a tiny fraction of the pension spending are a softer target.

foreign aid is interesting, currently the foreign aid budget is higher than whats spent on the unemployed, the government repeatedly considers foreign aid as affordable and has protected it from cuts, yet the money spent on the unemployed is apparently unaffordable, doesnt compute.

Growth is key to all this. If one does austerity, then its gaurantueed recession, then this will ultimately grow any deficit, especially when done alongside tax cuts.

some people eg. are ok with cutting the deficit as long as it isnt payed for by via increased personal taxes, its fine as long as it comes from other people's pockets. I cant stand self serving people.

Growth will naturally erode a deficit. Which is what happened during labour's tenure up until 2008, the deficit was shrinking until the banking crisis. Which proves the rubbish blurted out about public spending means very little, its a red herring.

If you have to balance the books, it is sane to throw money into the bin?

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

what are better ways?

the tax credit system is no more complex than the income tax system. I think this complexity word is been used cheaply to try and get rid of any public expenditure that helps the poor.

either way you distracting from the point they lied.

for child tax credits we can go back to the old system of claiming for kids in your tax code .for working tax credits a threshold of between £10-15,000 ,already proposed by some

"the tax credit system is no more complex than the income tax system"

The income tax systemis over complicated and not fit for purpose .That is accepted by every financial institution that has ever commented on it including some in government .The complexity of both systems leave them wide open to fraud and error costing billions a year

either way you distracting from the point they lied.

They haven't lied at all,that is your opinion because you have read 1 article that fits your opinion and ignored all other sources that disagree with you .

[Chrysalis]

Actually my opinion was formed before the article, I only looked for the article so I had a url to post on that matter.

Typically I use official departmental figures as my source of info, they often dont match up to minister's statements.

I dont understand how you can find income tax over complex, its actually an extremely simple, different tiers dependent on income, whats complex about that? What you rather say is you want a flat rate tax as it doesnt tax the wealthy so much.

What would you say if I thought the way different people get paid different amounts depending on where they live, what they do, who they know etc. too complex and I proposed everyone who works gets a fixed rate salary as its simpler, would you like that?

The only thing I agree with you on is fraud is easy, but it will always be easy when people can fiddle their income figures.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I dont understand how you can find income tax over complex, its actually an extremely simple, different tiers dependent on income, whats complex about that? What you rather say is you want a flat rate tax as it doesnt tax the wealthy so much.
.

you must be the only person in the uk who thinks the tax system is simple ,the only time it could be classed as simple is if you are PAYE and someone does the work for you .As for running a business and trying to claim tax credits without ending up in debt to the HMRC that is practically impossible and even the advisers don't know their way around the system .The reason why rich people pay far less tax by % than the rest of us mere mortals is because the system is so complicated

And yes a flat rate of tax is much preferable to the stupid system we have now ,simply because the rich will pay more tax .There is already a thread about a flat rate of tax which is far more on topic than discussing that here i will be happy to debate it with there

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by martyh

you must be the only person in the uk who thinks the tax system is simple ,the only time it could be classed as simple is if you are PAYE and someone does the work for you .As for running a business and trying to claim tax credits without ending up in debt to the HMRC that is practically impossible and even the advisers don't know their way around the system .The reason why rich people pay far less tax by % than the rest of us mere mortals is because the system is so complicated

And yes a flat rate of tax is much preferable to the stupid system we have now ,simply because the rich will pay more tax .There is already a thread about a flat rate of tax which is far more on topic than discussing that here i will be happy to debate it with there

Why would the rich pay more tax on a flat rate system?

The tax rate would be set lower for them, and its still dependent on them declaring their income.

[Arthurgray50@blu]

The saddest part of this horrible government, id that the whole morale of the police service is under threat.

I know that yes, Police officers cannot be made redundant, HOWEVER, they are asked to leave after 30 years services, when they don't want to leave. Civil staff are always under threat of being offered redundancies.

They will always find a way of getting rid of you in the job to cut costs, young PCs that start now are on a £3.000 less than what a regular officer gets and that after there probation this only goes up by a fraction.

I know of two PCs who have been in the job less than two years, and they have told me that the morale in the job is at an all time low, and people just don't want to do it anymore.

What l think is wrong is that all the cutbacks that has been brought on by this horrible government is that, you need MORE officers on the beat, as the general public does not know what the police have to put up with, paperwork, station closures, vehicle problem and the stress that comes with it, yes they get paid good money, but l believe that these brave guys and girls that put there lives on the line for us, should get decent money for what they have to put up with.

Just think in a couple of years, if this government have there way, you won't have a police service - you will will have a private company running it.

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

Just think in a couple of years, if this government have there way, you won't have a police service - you will will have a private company running it.

As usual, you talk complete rubbish. If you genuinely believe half the stuff you post on this forum, the insides of your head must be a very dark and depressing place.

Originally Posted by Chris

As usual, you talk complete rubbish. If you genuinely believe half the stuff you post on this forum, the insides of your head must be a very dark and depressing place.

Weren't the government planning to get G4S to take over some parts of policing?

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I don't know where you live Damien, but if you get THE EVEING STANDARD in London, you read that.

This is what is going to happen to the police service in London. Due to cutbacks the Met Police is having to find major cutbacks and people will almost certainly lose there jobs. Remember the Tottenham riots several months ago, well l was there and it the most scariest thing that l ever saw and the government want to cut policing.

You cannot have a private company run this sort of work its totally impossible, look what happen at the Olympics, total chaos.

WE need to do what they did in America, they DOUBLED there police service, and we should be doing the same here.

Next time you call 999, see what happens then. Crime will almost ceratinly go up, and the general public, thats you and me will feel unsafe when you walk the streets.

I called the police yesterday, when l was in Hounslow and no one turned up as they had no officers spare - this is what is happening in London - so if you think thats complete rubbish, think about it.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

Why would the rich pay more tax on a flat rate system?

The tax rate would be set lower for them, and its still dependent on them declaring their income.

you need to read up on the principle of a single tax rate ,it's all in the link i posted
but a quick taster for you is that with a single tax rate most if not all the loopholes open to high earners via their accountants will be closed .At the moment with a good accountant someone who is supposed to pay 50% will probably pay less that 20%