Football : Season 2012/2013

[thenry]

amusing stuff. Chelsea went and stole Wengers French playground too right. unbelievable. reasonable arguement? your not listening. In 2008 we was short of a player or two. The 1-2 player(s) would not of cost the worlds cash reserves. Wenger decided against it and persisted with his own ways. instead of being one step ahead Wenger has left himself open to be attacked by various things such as his own players having enough and leaving. this is a cycle now. the qaulity is declining. Wengers become incredibly predictable.

Originally Posted by thenry

amusing stuff. Chelsea went and stole Wengers French playground too right. unbelievable. reasonable arguement? your not listening.

I am listening. I am writing quite long posts explaining my position and why I think you're mistaken. It's not unbelievable. It's quite self-evident that Chelsea and Manchester City got to where they are by spending a lot of money. There are only a few places at the top of the table and their presence there means we have fallen behind them

I am addressing what you're saying. I just don't think you've backed it up.

In 2008 we was short of a player or two. The 1-2 player(s) would not of cost the worlds cash reserves. Wenger decided against it and persisted with his own ways. instead of being one step ahead Wenger has left himself open to be attacked by various things such as his own players having enough and leaving. this is a cycle now. the qaulity is declining. Wengers become incredibly predictable.

In hindsight there are a lot of things we would do differently of course. The fact the squad got so close in 2008 despite spending little money is a credit to Wenger and yes, he should have got more players. However that isn't a reason to let him go. Manchester United fans would say the same about the positions in which they were weak last year. In football that happens.

At the risk of labouring the point....

We need to define what our expectations are, if those expectations as reasonable in the current climate, and how Wenger is performing against those expectations. This isn't a conversation Arsenal fans wish to have because, looked at objectively, we're meeting what can be expected of us. That's a depressing thought given that 10 years ago we were on top of the game.

[thenry]

you do not have to spends billions to compete. in our case its spending within means and also getting the most from spend. we have a huge wage bill. last season we finished 19pts behind Utd and City. Utds wage bill is 12% higher than ours i think? we finished 19pts behind utilising half a squad? not only that but we finished 19pts behind having a manager hell bent over his formation and some average players. what if Wenger was able to get the most out of the full squad or close to it, theres always a couple that dont pan out but half a squad not performing? ontop of that a formation that was too strong for our performers as we were and still are picked off.

its not in hindsight. previous seasons we needed a player or 2 extra. it wasnt done. we were crying out for it. may be not you but a vast amount of fans were. Wenger persisted. hes got himself in this because hes clearly in two places. at board level and pitched side. Wenger can be pitch side as well as aiding the boardroom and our forward motto but he cannot do it properly until he changes which he isnt going to do. i wish he would. Wenger himself is worth 100mil each window. if only he changed and dominated which he and we could.

we are not meeting expectations. minimum requirement which is qaulifying for the CL isnt expectations being met. a title charge is. getting the most out of the squad is. going to our rivals places and giving a good account of ourselves is. not being picked off like schoolboys is. not having blind faith in average crap. not buying average crap where theres other options. not buying to aid a flawed formation which in fact is played with average players that get caught out then the rest of the squad have to bear the chaos. not having stars leave because their fed up. etc. etc.

Wengers performing against his own crap. hes getting into the CL using half a squad and that star or two surrounded by average. he is not performing above expectations or above resources available.

Originally Posted by thenry

you do not have to spends billions to compete. in our case its spending within means and also getting the most from spend. we have a huge wage bill. last season we finished 19pts behind Utd and City. Utds wage bill is 12% higher than ours i think? we finished 19pts behind utilising half a squad? not only that but we finished 19pts behind having a manager hell bent over his formation and some average players. what if Wenger was able to get the most out of the full squad or close to it, theres always a couple that dont pan out but half a squad not performing? ontop of that a formation that was too strong for our performers as we were and still are picked off.

I think you do need quite significant spending to compete. I haven't seen many examples in football where a team has managed to compete with someone that has a much higher budget. Here that would be Manchester City and Chelsea, in Spain it's Barcelona and Real Madrid. Germany is better but that's largely because they do not have juggernauts spending billions on their squads.

In England however the trend towards high spending has been the case since in the inception of the Premier League. Only one club outside the high earners have won the league in 20 years, that was Blackburn, and that was because they were financed for that title challenge by Jack Walker.

So it's not clear to me that you can compete on the field when you cannot compete in the transfer market. It just hasn't be done in the last 20 years. All the clubs that have won the Premier League have managed to compete with their rival clubs in the transfer market. That trend has only got more pronounced with the arrival of Chelsea.

If it was possible to build a title winning team without spending big other clubs would have done it by now. Especially us.

its not in hindsight. previous seasons we needed a player or 2 extra. it wasnt done. we were crying out for it. may be not you but a vast amount of fans were. Wenger persisted. hes got himself in this because hes clearly in two places. at board level and pitched side. Wenger can be pitch side as well as aiding the boardroom and our forward motto but he cannot do it properly until he changes which he isnt going to do. i wish he would. Wenger himself is worth 100mil each window. if only he changed and dominated which he and we could.

People always cry out for more players. Sometimes they will be correct, other times they won't. I agree that in 2008 we should have had better squad depth but we didn't and that was that. It's worth remembering all the other things the fans said we should do that would have been mistakes, remember the outcry for M'Vila? Now M'Vila's career is descending rapidly down the pan. The problem is the fans forget when they're wrong but remember when the manager is wrong for the next 10 years.

Arsenal won't be able to dominate. I don't understand that logic at all. We may one season make a heroic bid for the title but, unless the football climate changes, we won't ever dominate and we never really have since Chapman. United or Liverpool were always there.

we are not meeting expectations. minimum requirement which is qaulifying for the CL isnt expectations being met. a title charge is.

A title charge is an unrealistic expectation given the resources available. Even if we spent all the money in the bank our squad wouldn't match Manchester City's one. Given wages a player like Hazard would almost wipe it out.

getting the most out of the squad is. going to our rivals places and giving a good account of ourselves is. not being picked off like schoolboys is. not having blind faith in average crap. not buying average crap where theres other options. not buying to aid a flawed formation which in fact is played with average players that get caught out then the rest of the squad have to bear the chaos. not having stars leave because their fed up. etc. etc.

The stars leave because they can double their contracts elsewhere. Wenger doesn't want to buy 'average crap' but each transfer is a risk. Clubs everywhere make bad decisions when buying players. It isn't easy. I trust Wenger more than I trust fans when it comes to judging a players quality.

Wengers performing against his own crap. hes getting into the CL using half a squad and that star or two surrounded by average. he is not performing above expectations or above resources available.

Well he is matching expectations and sometimes slightly above what is available. We have the 4th/5th largest wage bill and finished 3rd. We have one of the lowest net transfer spends in the league and we finished 3rd. These aren't bad numbers. 3rd/4th is about where we are...behind City/Chelsea/United.

[thenry]

Originally Posted by Damien

I think you do need quite significant spending to compete. I haven't seen many examples in football where a team has managed to compete with someone that has a much higher budget. Here that would be Manchester City and Chelsea, in Spain it's Barcelona and Real Madrid. Germany is better but that's largely because they do not have juggernauts spending billions on their squads.

hold on you just agreed we got close in 08 when we lacked a player or two. there were players around that would not have cost the earth in transfer fee in salary.

---------- Post added at 21:30 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

In England however the trend towards high spending has been the case since in the inception of the Premier League. Only one club outside the high earners have won the league in 20 years, that was Blackburn, and that was because they were financed for that title challenge by Jack Walker.

So it's not clear to me that you can compete on the field when you cannot compete in the transfer market. It just hasn't be done in the last 20 years. All the clubs that have won the Premier League have managed to compete with their rival clubs in the transfer market. That trend has only got more pronounced with the arrival of Chelsea.

If it was possible to build a title winning team without spending big other clubs would have done it by now. Especially us.

there are many players out in the world. other clubs scouting network sucked. now its becoming clear you have to have a decent network.

we were close. Wenger failed to add a player or two into the mix. by the way Arsenal are more than capable of spending big. the fact theres other players and the fact Arsenal wont go throw an extra 10mil for the sake of it means we can compete.

---------- Post added at 21:34 ---------- Previous post was at 21:30 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

People always cry out for more players. Sometimes they will be correct, other times they won't. I agree that in 2008 we should have had better squad depth but we didn't and that was that. It's worth remembering all the other things the fans said we should do that would have been mistakes, remember the outcry for M'Vila? Now M'Vila's career is descending rapidly down the pan. The problem is the fans forget when they're wrong but remember when the manager is wrong for the next 10 years.

Arsenal won't be able to dominate. I don't understand that logic at all. We may one season make a heroic bid for the title but, unless the football climate changes, we won't ever dominate and we never really have since Chapman. United or Liverpool were always there.

right firstly fair enough both parties are right and wrong but not addressing the obvious is foolish.

M'Vilas a tool.

i meant dominating maximising resources available.

---------- Post added at 21:39 ---------- Previous post was at 21:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

.A title charge is an unrealistic expectation given the resources available. Even if we spent all the money in the bank our squad wouldn't match Manchester City's one. Given wages a player like Hazard would almost wipe it out.

we dont need to match City or Chelseas wage bill. its inflated just like ours is at the moment seeing as we're getting nothing from half the squad. look at Newcastles wage bill and what they achieved. a much much lower wage bill who missed out of CL but still pushed until the end. we have a budget of 4th biggest spenders in salary. i think a title charge is more than capable if resources are spent properly, the squad players are kept on their toes and formations suit.

i honestly cant believe youve been sucked into the crap.

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:39 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

The stars leave because they can double their contracts elsewhere. Wenger doesn't want to buy 'average crap' but each transfer is a risk. Clubs everywhere make bad decisions when buying players. It isn't easy. I trust Wenger more than I trust fans when it comes to judging a players quality.

so they leave just because of money? right ok. and Wenger doesnt want to buy crap? its his choice to buy and persist with crap.

Originally Posted by thenry

hold on you just agreed we got close in 08 when we lacked a player or two. there were players around that would not have cost the earth in transfer fee in salary.

Yes, I never said we wouldn't have. I just think it's all very well saying that now. I wish we had done that but it was injuries which cost us a lot in that season and how would we be sure the players we got would have been in those positions? It's speculative.

there are many players out in the world. other clubs scouting network sucked. now its becoming clear you have to have a decent network.

All the clubs do have a decent network really. The major ones. There are few surprises in football now. If we look at some of the smart, cheap, buys then there aren't world beaters. Mostly Newcastle with the likes of Ba but they didn't really show anything that makes me think they would sustain a title challenge. There is a big gap between that level and the type of players that can win a title, they are being hoovered up by clubs like city.

In the end there are many players in the world but so few who have played at a top level. The ones who have proven they can compete at that level are noticed and command a premium. We deal with players who haven't competed at that level and therefore we take the risk.

However Wenger's return on these players in excellent really. Jenkinson, Koscielny and Sagna. Chamberlain wasn't unknown but showed he would pay for quality. Arteta and Cazorla were cheap. He has done alright there to be honest.

we were close. Wenger failed to add a player or two into the mix. by the way Arsenal are more than capable of spending big. the fact theres other players and the fact Arsenal wont go throw an extra 10mil for the sake of it means we can compete.

Even if you take the £60 million that is meant to be in reserve (and it would be foolish to take all of it) that isn't exactly going to trouble City and Chelsea. It could probably buy us a decent striker and defender but we'll still struggle with depth in some positions. I think it would help us cement third or fourth depending how the others do...

I think third or forth is acceptable given Arsenal's resources.

My real problem at Arsenal is the ticket prices and the board's fleecing of the fans more than our lack of silverware.

[thenry]

Originally Posted by Damien

Well he is matching expectations and sometimes slightly above what is available. We have the 4th/5th largest wage bill and finished 3rd. We have one of the lowest net transfer spends in the league and we finished 3rd. These aren't bad numbers. 3rd/4th is about where we are...behind City/Chelsea/United.

hes meeting expectations using half a squad. being 4th biggest salary spenders means nothing when only half of it is meaningful so yes if you look at wgmhats useful and has made a difference then yes it is above expectations but then that puts us where in the salary spend table?

we're only behind Utd, Chelsea and City because our resources spent is not being maximized. we could be a lot closer outperforming and running a business so its peaking. true role model self subtainzzz.

i think a title charge is more than capable if resources are spent properly, the squad players are kept on their toes and formations suit.

i honestly cant believe youve been sucked into the crap.

Sucked into what crap? I don't think it's realistic to compete with clubs that have considerably more money than us. This isn't a novel realisation, it's evident when you look at the league table for the last 10 years. City and Chelsea did not, did not, get where they are because they were clever with purchases and formations. They spent a massive amount of money.

By all means we should try but we shouldn't expect to do it. It's a very hard thing to do. If it wasn't then we would see more clubs doing it. You can kind of do it to an extent, especially lower down the league, but at the top of the league it becomes harder.

Wenger doesnt want to buy crap? its his choice to buy and persist with crap.

Of couse it isn't. He wants to buy good players, sometimes he gets it wrong. That happens in football when you're buying untested players. I am aware every fan seems to know better than Wenger when it come to what players to buy, what tactics to use and so on. However we have to be aware it's much harder when you're the guy that has to make those decisions and you don't have the benefit of hindsight. I am sure Wenger wishes he done some of these things too but he doesn't want to buy crap and he isn't a fool.

I am tired of this same discussion each time now anyway. We're going around in circles like we do every time.

---------- Post added at 21:59 ---------- Previous post was at 21:55 ----------

Originally Posted by thenry

hes meeting expectations using half a squad. being 4th biggest salary spenders means nothing when only half of it is meaningful so yes if you look at wgmhats useful and has made a difference then yes it is above expectations but then that puts us where in the salary spend table?

We're either forth or fifth, it depends on what Liverpool currently have as it's usually between us and them for that last spot there.

we're only behind Utd, Chelsea and City because our resources spent is not being maximized. we could be a lot closer outperforming and running a business so its peaking. true role model self subtainzzz.

We're really not. All of them produce substantially bigger incomes from their owners or business. We should manage the resources better of course but money talks.

[thenry]

Originally Posted by Damien

Yes, I never said we wouldn't have. I just think it's all very well saying that now. I wish we had done that but it was injuries which cost us a lot in that season and how would we be sure the players we got would have been in those positions? It's speculative.

like i said it was said prior and during the season. it wasnt injuries as such but bedding the amount of chances created. we kept creating but lacked fire player. someone who could wieve in and score. someone direct.

Originally Posted by Damien

All the clubs do have a decent network really. The major ones. There are few surprises in football now. If we look at some of the smart, cheap, buys then there aren't world beaters. Mostly Newcastle with the likes of Ba but they didn't really show anything that makes me think they would sustain a title challenge. There is a big gap between that level and the type of players that can win a title, they are being hoovered up by clubs like city.

In the end there are many players in the world but so few who have played at a top level. The ones who have proven they can compete at that level are noticed and command a premium. We deal with players who haven't competed at that level and therefore we take the risk.

However Wenger's return on these players in excellent really. Jenkinson, Koscielny and Sagna. Chamberlain wasn't unknown but showed he would pay for quality. Arteta and Cazorla were cheap. He has done alright there to be honest.

so having Ben Arfa wouldnt have helped us in 08? a players whos direct? Cabaye couldnt play in a title fighting side. I agree there are levels but our levels of surrounding pure talent around average is poor. the are players Newcastle obtained. 1 or 2 of their players could work wonders for our push.

Originally Posted by Damien

Even if you take the £60 million that is meant to be in reserve (and it would be foolish to take all of it) that isn't exactly going to trouble City and Chelsea. It could probably buy us a decent striker and defender but we'll still struggle with depth in some positions. I think it would help us cement third or fourth depending how the others do...

not true. buying a player or two costing each in the region of below 15-20mil could of seen us lift the title in 08.

Originally Posted by Damien

I think third or forth is acceptable given Arsenal's resources.

acceptable i guess but expectations of going for the title not met.

Originally Posted by Damien

My real problem at Arsenal is the ticket prices and the board's fleecing of the fans more than our lack of silverware.

yeah they pee me off too.

---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:00 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

Sucked into what crap? I don't think it's realistic to compete with clubs that have considerably more money than us. This isn't a novel realisation, it's evident when you look at the league table for the last 10 years. City and Chelsea did not, did not, get where they are because they were clever with purchases and formations. They spent a massive amount of money.

By all means we should try but we shouldn't expect to do it. It's a very hard thing to do. If it wasn't then we would see more clubs doing it. You can kind of do it to an extent, especially lower down the league, but at the top of the league it becomes harder.

City spent a vast amount. you could also look at it by seeing the vast amount they wasted.

Originally Posted by Damien

Of couse it isn't. He wants to buy good players, sometimes he gets it wrong. That happens in football when you're buying untested players. I am aware every fan seems to know better than Wenger when it come to what players to buy, what tactics to use and so on. However we have to be aware it's much harder when you're the guy that has to make those decisions and you don't have the benefit of hindsight. I am sure Wenger wishes he done some of these things too but he doesn't want to buy crap and he isn't a fool.

I am tired of this same discussion each time now anyway. We're going around in circles like we do every time.

of course nothings perfect but we should be chasing perfection getting as close as possible. after all Ivan sells our model as perfection yet the flaws and cracks are clear as the day.

im saying but way too much!!!

Originally Posted by Damien

We're either forth or fifth, it depends on what Liverpool currently have as it's usually between us and them for that last spot there.

ypu didnt understand. if you add up all the funds used on those that offered something and minused the useless waste we would be a lot lower than 4th biggest spenders in salary.

Originally Posted by Damien

We're really not. All of them produce substantially bigger incomes from their owners or business. We should manage the resources better of course but money talks.

we could get a lot closer. they are banked roled i know still it doesnt bother me. we have renewals coming up and we have budgets able to lure qaulity not to mention stature and involvement in the CL. not all players are taken by the mega mega rich. there are players who slip through the net. i dont know who as im not a scout but i assure you theres talent able to be obtained by Arsenal instead of the Lidl trolley dashes

It's beginning to look a lot like Aldi.

[thenry]

itll be the jumble sale next.

---------- Post added at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:35 ----------

in other news.... FRAUD!

Spurs investigators charged with fraud following snooping claims from West Ham board in Olympic Stadium battle

An investigator hired by Tottenham to help their bid for the Olympic Stadium is among three men charged with fraud after allegedly obtaining illegally the private telephone records of West Ham director Karren Brady.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...um-battle.html

[thenry]

right so in the summer it looks like Huntelaar, Lewandowski and Llorente will be available on a free. I want Huntelaar at Arsenal

Klaas act set for Prem

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ague-move.html

[denphone]

Originally Posted by thenry

right so in the summer it looks like Huntelaar, Lewandowski and Llorente will be available on a free. I want Huntelaar at Arsenal

And the rumour is he will join my beloved.

[thenry]

may be. City want Suarez

[denphone]

Originally Posted by thenry

City want Suarez

A pipedream methinks.