Eurozone will collapse...

Originally Posted by Damien

It seems for the moment that the Eurozone won't collapse which is good, hopefully the economies will start to grow and help move beyond the last couple of years. It does seem like Greece might just be kicked out if they can't or won't take bailout money anymore.

It's not good at all. The longer they keep the Euro on the crash trolley trying to jolt it back to life, the longer the PIIGS have to grow and overtake it. The Euro *is* the problem. They can either dispense with it now, which would cause a train wreck, or else they can dispense with it when they no longer have any choice in the matter, in which case it will be like a nuke going off. Sadly it looks like we're heading for the latter.

[Osem]

Tend to agree with Chris on this. Fiddling while Rome burns comes to mind.

It's doomed and the longer that this sorry exercise in hubris is perpetuated, the worse the fallout will be. Why are they prolonging the inevitable? The only logical reason for this continuing charade is to safeguard the jobs of the unelected freeloaders who are making an excellent living at our expense. Not that I am at all naffed off with the EU project

Originally Posted by Chris

It's not good at all. The longer they keep the Euro on the crash trolley trying to jolt it back to life, the longer the PIIGS have to grow and overtake it. The Euro *is* the problem. They can either dispense with it now, which would cause a train wreck, or else they can dispense with it when they no longer have any choice in the matter, in which case it will be like a nuke going off. Sadly it looks like we're heading for the latter.

Or they can stagger on? I don't think the Euro dying is a foregone conclusion. Greece will probably go but there has been plenty of time for their debts to have been written off anyway, the risk to other European banks will be limited and the Eurozone will probably be better without them. Italy and Spain have both had successful bond auctions which have brought the price of that debt down from the dangerous levels of a few months ago. The immediate danger of the domino effect has passed for now, the ECB's debt buying plan has eased the crisis.

If it continues like this then they'll be in a position to decide if they're going to become more closely integrated with each other. That decision will probably be what decides it's future but there is still a route where we'll still be using Euros in mainland Europe come 2020.

[Matth]

Major surgery will be needed to keep the euro alive - either the weaker economies will have to be ejected to a free floating currency, or the stronger economies (The FrancMark alliance, and anyone else that can keep up) will have to transition to a new currency, with the euro floating to suit the lesser economies.

The Euro was created out of a balance of economies that were all pulling in the same direction, and while lesser ones could be absorbed without too much damage when things were going well, when the pressure is on, they will kill the euro or the euro will kill them.

The French economy is very much of the south, not the north, and if the economies of the Eurozone do start to fall like dominoes, the French is likely to go down right after Spain and Italy.

The heart of the Euro is not a union of the Franc and the DM, no matter how much posturing the French may indulge in. The Euro is now, to all intents and purposes, a currency peg system in which the national currencies of the members are welded to the value of the DM. It is the strength of the DM hiding behind the name "Euro" and next to the weakness of almost all the others, that is the problem.

One possible solution to this mess would be for *Germany* to leave the Euro, possibly taking Finland and the Netherlands with it, and forging a new "Northern Euro" if they remain wedded to the idea of being in some sort of currency union, leaving the original currency as a "Southern Euro" which would rapidly float down to a competitive level against the north.

However, we know that Europe's political clique would never actively pursue such a policy, because fundamentally the Euro is a political project, not an economic one. If it doesn't serve to lock Europe together as one, then it doesn't serve its purpose at all. So they will continue flogging the dead horse until Armageddon.

[Osem]

The German economy is what's keeping the EU show on the road, for now... Amazingly, growing resentment in Germany and the weaker economies still hasn't set alarm bells ringing in the minds of those, blinkered, singleminded Eurocrats who've staked everything on the grand Euro project and peddle the myth of only peace and harmony in Europe. The Euro project in its present form is a busted flush and it's the worst possible indictment of those at the helm of EU Good Ship Euro (little known sister ship to the Titanic) that they refuse to acknowledge it and change course.

[denphone]

EU budget talks for 2013 collapse

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20269373

Talks to agree the EU's 2013 budget have collapsed, after negotiators from the EU and member states were unable to agree on extra funding for 2012.

The EU Commission and European Parliament had asked for a budget rise of 6.8% in 2013.

But most governments wanted to limit the rise to just 2.8%.

The failure of the talks will dent hopes of agreement on the 2014-2020 budget, which is up for discussion later this month, correspondents say.

Friday's dispute was over an extra 9bn euros (£7bn; $12bn) in "emergency funding" for 2012, to cover budgets for education, infrastructure and research projects.

But Germany, France and other governments questioned the funding, and eight hours of talks produced no agreement.

Quite right too. We're now in November of 2012 and the EU is demanding an extra €9 billion *for this year* because it can't control its own spending properly. Clearly the European Commission thinks it can spend what it wants, where it wants, and then simply come back and milk the member states a little more to cover it. They need to learn to control their budget, especially at a time when they are telling member states to do likewise.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by denphone

EU budget talks for 2013 collapse

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20269373

Just wish the bloody Euro would collapse so we can start over afresh.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Quite right too. We're now in November of 2012 and the EU is demanding an extra €9 billion *for this year* because it can't control its own spending properly. Clearly the European Commission thinks it can spend what it wants, where it wants, and then simply come back and milk the member states a little more to cover it. They need to learn to control their budget, especially at a time when they are telling member states to do likewise.

We need to get out and get out soon.

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Just wish the bloody Euro would collapse so we can start over afresh.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------



We need to get out and get out soon.

Yeah,get out of the EU and end up like Norway and Switzerland. Oh,hang on....

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Will21st

Yeah,get out of the EU and end up like Norway and Switzerland. Oh,hang on....

[Osem]

I must say the sheer arrogance of the Eurocrats never ceases to amaze me! They're in group denial and I'm sure they feel terribly affronted by demands to keep their own house in order. It's as if they inhabit a different universe...

---------- Post added at 13:59 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------

Originally Posted by Will21st

Yeah,get out of the EU and end up like Norway and Switzerland. Oh,hang on....

Sorry but Salmond's tartan twits have already claimed Norway as part of the SNP's hastily geographically rearranged "arc of prosperity".

[Will21st]

Originally Posted by Osem

I must say the sheer arrogance of the Eurocrats never ceases to amaze me! They're in group denial and I'm sure they feel terribly affronted by demands to keep their own house in order. It's as if they inhabit a different universe...

---------- Post added at 13:59 ---------- Previous post was at 13:56 ----------



Sorry but Salmond's tartan twits have already claimed Norway as part of the SNP's hastily geographically rearranged "arc of prosperity".

Racist!!!!

Oh,and for the Arc.... at Scotland's end is ,well,the end of the arc,and at Norway's end the wealth!

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Osem

Sorry but Salmond's tartan twits have already claimed Norway as part of the SNP's hastily geographically rearranged "arc of prosperity".

Well he was banging on about the republic of Ireland and its celtic tiger economy but has gone strangely quiet on that front recently.