The NHS reform discussion thread

[mertle]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17083357

How far will this government go to bully ahead changes when profesional people denied audiance to ally there fears help shape NHS reforms.

Government showing they will tread on everybody shoes unles your CEO, Banker or someone hoarding millions negating paying you tax by arranging accounts to fluffy your dog.

Day after day we see cameron and cronies further lose the plot and it surely at some point even most ardent government supporters will wain from support.

Surely if the NHS needs reforms then ALL parts NHS bodies HAVE RIGHT to SHAPE it. That includes the ELECTORATE.

The "ELECTORATE" did shape it - it was called the 2010 General Election.

Please stop creating new threads every time you fancy having a go at the NHS reforms. We only need one.

Merged.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I'm getting irritated with this debate.
Anyone who thinks doctors & nurses are qualified to meaningfully pontificate on the future of the nhs is deluded. Why? They often can't get their diagnoses right, they botch treatment, drug companies have far too much influence on their decision making and patients end up dying of or as a by-product of malnutrition.
Nurses can't even turn patients to stop bed sores.
We have junior doctors in A&E who can't diagnose angina (see last nights TV) and who can't diagnose a fractured wrist (and deny it's there) even when it is pointed out to them on xray (by me).
Nurses who can't warm up my hypothermic father because they don't know that they have to turn on the heater in the warm air blanket till I point out that they are blowing cold air on a 75yo hypothermic patient!
How about the brand new Pembury hospial that didn't have any of the common prescription heart drugs that that my mother needed when she was admitted last weekend?
Cr*p as they often can be (not always) they are our best hope when we or our loved ones are critically ill. With that in mind we really do need to try to get the nhs working properly, 'cos it isn't at the moment......these reforms might be a chance to make things better and we shouldn't dismiss them out of hand just because a tory government came up with them or medical professionals disagree with them.

</rant>

Nice to see a genuine post that is not just the old political rhetoric from the " we hate the tories so it must be wrong group"

Originally Posted by Hugh

The "ELECTORATE" did shape it - it was called the 2010 General Election.

Not quite Hugh as the NHS reform on the basis it is currently being rolled out was not mentioned in the maifestos of either the Tories or Liberal Democrats ,so have not really passed the "electorate"test.

In fact before the 2010 General Election David Cameron was even saying "No more top down reform of the NHS"

[Chrysalis]

The electorate didnt shape anything.

it seems its fine for a party to say one thing and do another after elected without legal repurcussions.

not to mention the majority of the country has little to no voting power in a general election.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

The electorate didnt shape anything.

it seems its fine for a party to say one thing and do another after elected without legal repercussions.

To be honest that has happened after EVERY election

Originally Posted by richard1960

Not quite Hugh as the NHS reform on the basis it is currently being rolled out was not mentioned in the maifestos of either the Tories or Liberal Democrats ,so have not really passed the "electorate"test.

In fact before the 2010 General Election David Cameron was even saying "No more top down reform of the NHS"

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

The electorate didnt shape anything.

it seems its fine for a party to say one thing and do another after elected without legal repurcussions.

not to mention the majority of the country has little to no voting power in a general election.

Actually most if not all the changes where in the conservative manifesto for the 2010 general election

http://www.general-election-2010.co....y-back-the-nhs

a few snippets

We will strengthen the power of gPs as patients’ expert guides through the health system by:
• giving them the power to hold patients’ budgets and commission care on their behalf;
• linking their pay to the quality of their results; and,
• putting them in charge of commissioning local health services. trust healthcare professionals

Have not got time to reply in full heres amother snippet.

.

We will stop the forced closure of a&e and maternity wards, so that people have better access to local services, and give mothers a real choice over where to have their baby, with nhS funding following their decisions. We will create local ‘maternity networks’ to ensure that mothers can safely access the right care, in the right place, at the right time.



Chase farm hospital is about to lose its A/E dept in an enforced closure so much for that then.

Originally Posted by richard1960

Have not got time to reply in full heres amother snippet.

.

We will stop the forced closure of a&e and maternity wards, so that people have better access to local services, and give mothers a real choice over where to have their baby, with nhS funding following their decisions. We will create local ‘maternity networks’ to ensure that mothers can safely access the right care, in the right place, at the right time.



Chase farm hospital is about to lose its A/E dept in an enforced closure so much for that then.

erm ....it's not a forced government closure ,it was recommended to the government by the IRP (Independent Reconfiguration Panel),i would assume because of the main A&E at Barnet a couple of miles down the road

The IRP – a panel of doctors, NHS managers and lay members – recently told Lansley that, in their view, "the status quo has real downside risk in terms of the current safety and sustainability of local services". Lansley said the experts' judgment left him with no alternative but to endorse their recommendations.

Right i can reply a bit more in length now where in the conservative manifesto in 2010 did it state up to 49% of beds in NHS hospitals could be used for private patients.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16337904

Thats quite a major change from the way it stands now.

I also did not see any mention of deregulated tariffs for hospitals.

Currently hospitals have to charge a fixed tariff for a specific procedure, but under the reforms, they will be allowed to charge lower, more competitive prices. The British Medical Association has "concerns over the use of... deregulated tariffs in the NHS, because this system brings with it price competition, which can risk basing decisions on price rather than on clinical need".

Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/85...#ixzz1mpt9Ajpi

This is what David Cameron said about chase farm A/E .

But Cameron indicated his support for Chase Farm in October that year when, as leader of the opposition, he visited the hospital and said: "What I would say to Gordon Brown is if you call an election on 1 November we'll stop the closure of services at this hospital on 2 November."

Ms Fonyonga, 28, held a copy of the Evening Standard aloft at the conference showing Mr Lansley with a "hands off Chase Farm A&E" pledge card. This month the Government backed a panel's recommendations on Chase Farm's services.

Originally Posted by richard1960

Right i can reply a bit more in length now where in the conservative manifesto in 2010 did it state up to 49% of beds in NHS hospitals could be used for private patients.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16337904

Thats quite a major change from the way it stands now.

I also did not see any mention of deregulated tariffs for hospitals.

Currently hospitals have to charge a fixed tariff for a specific procedure, but under the reforms, they will be allowed to charge lower, more competitive prices. The British Medical Association has "concerns over the use of... deregulated tariffs in the NHS, because this system brings with it price competition, which can risk basing decisions on price rather than on clinical need".

.

spreading the use of the nhS tariff, so funding follows patients’ choices;

http://www.general-election-2010.co....y-back-the-nhs

yes they did ,the deregulated tarriffs will be in conjunction with "best practice" for each procedure so no matter what is charged the same standard must be adhered to


I repeat Chase farm A&E was not closed by the government it was a recommended closure by the IRP


If you think that political parties put all proposals in minute detail into their manifestos then you are mistaken ,however in the case of NHS reform it was quite comprehensively covered ,so you can't say that the voting public didn't have a chance to vote for it .

Originally Posted by martyh

http://www.general-election-2010.co....y-back-the-nhs

yes they did ,the deregulated tarriffs will be in conjunction with "best practice" for each procedure so no matter what is charged the same standard must be adhered to


I repeat Chase farm A&E was not closed by the government it was a recommended closure by the IRP


If you think that political parties put all proposals in minute detail into their manifestos then you are mistaken ,however in the case of NHS reform it was quite comprehensively covered ,so you can't say that the voting public didn't have a chance to vote for it .

I wonder who the IRP are though are they some quango that can enforce closures against what the local public would like.? The independant reconfiguration panel does not sound very democratic to me.

And them recommending closures and ministers agreeing sounds enforced to me! unless the local public have their say and are listened to.

GP fund holding might work but i have very deep reservations about the rest as i have linked to,in our area the GPs are not very keen on fundholding anyhow,as they can see arguments with patients who believe that GPs may withold treatment due to budgets and very frosty patient doctor relationships might develop as a result.

You could always have just googled it.

IRP

It was set up in 2003 by the previous Government, and here are its Terms of Reference

Originally Posted by Hugh

You could always have just googled it.

IRP

It was set up in 2003 by the previous Government.

I did and thought it was not very democratic unless the public have elected members on it.

The last Labour government were also very wrong abolishing the community health councils.