UK and Europe-wide ban next please!

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Russ

I wasn't referring to moral codes. Patience, our day shall come

Oh our day will certainly come, sadly if I'm right I'll never get to gloat over it to you

[Russ]

No I don't mean it like that

I meant I'm sure the relevant subject will pop up on CF and I will do in to detail then.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by nomadking

If any law/rule can be overridden on grounds of belief, then there is no valid reason for it to apply to everybody else. It would be too easy for people to declare a belief in something illegal or do the legal exceptions only apply to certain groups.

Rastafarians "require" marijuana as part of their "beliefs" AFAIK... so maybe they and other users can ignore the law?

Originally Posted by Taf

My wife's home town in France used to have about 11 local butchers, with only one of them halal. Now they are ALL halal butchers despite the local population not having anyway near a muslim majority. The original butchers went out of business as meat prices rocketted, but it seems halal butchers have an easy form of credit to move in and buy up the busineses. And all the local restaurants and fast food outlets now serve ONLY halal meats (I wonder how they get halal ham and peperoni for their pizzas ). And now the 2 local supermarkets have halal sections, well distanced from the pork section of course. ASDA here does too, but only in muslim-heavy areas.

A lot of places have halal meat because it tastes no different and it's just easier to make it all halal than not. I find it odd that these places no longer serve pork as if they don't have a Muslim majority in the town then they are losing money as a result.

And why would the halal butchers take over all the premises as the original owners went out of business because of rocketing meat prices - it doesn't matter what "easy form of credit (what does that mean, btw)" the new owners have, it will still be highly priced meat, surely, halal or not?

[Taf]

The credit crunch has stopped, or vastly reduced, lines of credit for existing businesses or for those wishing to buy/start businesses by loans from "western" banks. But sharia law "loans" from Middle Eastern banks are apparently still very available for muslims.

And generally AFAIC halal meat is sold below what "western" butchers would consider a decent profitable price.

Originally Posted by Taf

The credit crunch has stopped, or vastly reduced, lines of credit for existing businesses or for those wishing to buy/start businesses by loans from "western" banks. But sharia law "loans" from Middle Eastern banks are apparently still very available for muslims.

And generally AFAIC halal meat is sold below what "western" butchers would consider a decent profitable price.

There aren't many consumer/small business Muslim banks in France. You have to consider that these are often interest free loans so they are difficult to come by, even for Muslims. French itself doesn't have a big credit culture either.

If they are sold below a decent profitable price then how many the Halal butchers afford to keep going and not the 'Western' butchers anyway? They have to pay the same rent and presumably have a lower customer base than those who went out of business. What are they doing different?

[Taf]

Sharia bankloans don't usually come from "banks" in the country you are in, but by more direct routes from countries like Saudi Arabia. I know this because this is how 2 French muslim mates got money to buy their homes and a garage business between them.

Maybe muslim butchers don't want, or aren't allowed, to make large (probably huge) profits that "western" butchers" do?

Originally Posted by Taf

Sharia bankloans don't usually come from "banks" in the country you are in, but by more direct routes from countries like Saudi Arabia. I know this because this is how 2 French muslim mates got money to buy their homes and a garage business between them.

Maybe muslim butchers don't want, or aren't allowed, to make large (probably huge) profits that "western" butchers" do?

I don't think many small butchers make a large profit. I don't understand how some butchers can't keep their business alive and others can, and the only difference is the Muslim ones serves a much smaller market.

It's also weird that a town can sustain 11 Halal butchers, especially in France where the Muslim population is much smaller. Where about in France is this?

[Taf]

West of Paris (north of Paris is very halal too, but there's a majority muslim population there).

Quick burger that recently got attacked in several locations in France for selling only halal burgers without telling the local population that it had changed meat supplies (at first). They now provide non-halal burgers in those locations, "produced elsewhere and wrapped in cellophane."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6016381,00.html

[Hom3r]

Were I used to work I can remember a pakistani guy who followed his religions food without fail.

When they had Ramadan, he would follow that. he would also ask a woman (NOT his daughter and not even related, but he new her father) in my mums department if she was also following it. She said yes, but when he had walked away would carry on eating her food.

I even worked with people whose religon bans them from eating pig products, and drinking alcohol, but both would either drink a beer, or have a bacon sarnie.

I had no problems with them. It was there choice.

[chris9991]

I saw this article (or a similar one) with a table to say what meat sold in a supermarket was Halal - there's a table in the article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aughtered.html

I think people sholud be told whether something is Halal or not - allow people to choose rather than shoved down their throats

[Pauls9]

If Halal meat is produced with the same consideration for the animal's welfare as "regular" meat, then I've no objection. But is this the case?

[Taf]

Various animal welfare bodies say no, and have been saying no for many, many years.

---------- Post added at 16:43 ---------- Previous post was at 16:16 ----------

Hmmmm...

All NZ lamb is halal according to http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aughtered.html




BUT...

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Sate...&ssbinary=true

So is it halal or not? A bit of a conundrum for strict halal muslims, and also for non-muslims concerned about animal welfare.

---------- Post added at 16:49 ---------- Previous post was at 16:43 ----------

A scientific study by the Government’s Farm Animal Welfare Council in 2003 found that animals could remain fully conscious for up to two minutes after having their throats cut.

Halal meat is a big business in the UK. Last year the Government approved a deal which could allow 5,000 halal butchers from Pakistan to travel to this country to take up work.

The European Commission has put forward plans to ensure that *animals facing slaughter are “spared any avoidable pain, distress or suffering”.

Under the proposals all animals facing slaughter would have to be electrically stunned beforehand.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...nd-kosher-meat

Two minutes?

Not if the are hung upside down, which if being butchered under Kosher/Halal guidelines, they would be.

Looks like the example is out of context.....