Riots

[Gary L]

3 people killed trying to protect their homes.

The victims, understood to be two brothers and a friend, were hit by a speeding car in Birmingham in the early hours of this morning, West Midlands Police said.

Officers have arrested one man in connection with the deaths following the incident in the Winson Green area of the city. A car has also been recovered.

Locals indicated that the three men had been praying at their local mosque before taking to the streets to defend properties from a wave of thugs and looters.

One local resident said: “The community people were just protecting the area when the car came and ran them over on the pavement.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-violence.html

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Gary L

3 people killed trying to protect their homes.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-violence.html

Absolutely shocking to hear of 3 people losing their lives just doing what any normal citizen would do in protecting their homes and property.

Originally Posted by Gary L

all respect has gone now. these events will flare up anytime they feel like it. and for any reason they choose.

This is not anything new brought about by a sudden lack of respect, as if there is a bygone era of calm and law abiding society - there wasn't. I don't care if that's people's impressions, it's not backed up by the facts.

That said respect is crucial. Not respect just in 'the law' but a respect of society and the people within it. It's cuts both ways. If these people feel excluded from society, with no hopes of a decent future, then they are going to care a lot less about it.

What we need, in my view, is a combination of policy approaches. We need a harder line on petty crime and disorder but also a more liberal interventionist approach to prevent these people from wanting to cause this kind of violence in the first place. Most would not have been born wanting to do this. We need to do our best to make sure that young people from these communities feel they have a place and a stake in our society rather than feel as if they have no future within it.

Police need to be going in hard and fat whereever this sort of thing starts and cracking heads and if they are old enough to be out and doing this they are old enough to be on the other end of it. After this initial phase is over we need to see some serious sentences handed down and whatever other penalties that can be enforced to really hammer home to those of this mindset that whatever your problem this is not and never will be the answer or solution.

Sadly i have my doubts there will be any real punishment for this just a lot of talking by lots of people and planning but nothing to really hit the groups that did this and may well do it again when the fancy takes them such is our country today .

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Which is exactly what the BBC are reporting.

UK Riots: trouble erupts in English cities

Yes, it's confined to certain large towns and cities in England right now and we shouldn't forget that very many areas of England are still untouched by events. Hopefully won't spread further but I still wouldn't bet on that and **** like this won't let a line on a map obstruct their progress if we don't get to grips with this. Anyway let nobody pretend this is in some way solely an 'English' problem as they'll be any number of nationalities involved in the trouble including those who rather like to finger the English for all the world's ills.

Anyway, loads of arrests but how many will actually be charged and punished I wonder? I fear that whilst the arrests importantly remove certain individuals from the scene for a short time, if they subsequently walk away or get a slap on the wrist it'll only serve to prove that the risk/reward ratio is stacked up in favour of the lawbreakers. This will do nothing to disuade these people from taking part in similar acts in the future.

[Russ]

I don't think anyone is saying it's just the English that are doing this. But the problems are confined to England.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Russ

I don't think anyone is saying it's just the English that are doing this. But the problems are confined to England.

Or more accurately:

...it's confined to certain large towns and cities in England right now.

If we're rightly not going to tar the whole UK with this brush let's not tar the whole of England with it. Let's hope these riots don't spread to other parts of the UK but let's not pretend that if we don't get to grips with what's happening in parts of England that it won't eventually do so.

[Gary L]

Originally Posted by Osem

if they subsequently walk away or get a slap on the wrist it'll only serve to prove that the risk/reward ratio is stacked up in favour of the lawbreakers.
This will do nothing to disuade these people from taking part in similar acts in the future.

True.
it'll work in the way that say one person is charged with smashing a shop window stealing hundreds of pounds worth of stuff and then setting fire to the place resulting in thousands of pounds worth of damage. getting a supervision order.

or at worst. insufficient evidence and no charges at all.

they have nothing to lose. the rewards outweigh the punishment to a lot of these people.

it's the same kind of thing where the more offences you commit in one go. you come better off than just commiting the one offence.

such as driving with no insurance, no MOT, no TAX, no licence. causing thousands of pounds worth of damage. nearly killing innocent people. and failing to stop for police.

in some cases you will get the same punishment as someone who has been stopped for driving with an illegal tyre and an expired tax disc.

[MovedGoalPosts]

I haven't been following this thread in detail, but feel it's time to add my bit.

It is one thing people saying the police aren't doing enough, one needs to look a lot deeper at society. The reality is that the **** are running around without fear of anything happening even if they suffer the misfortune of getting caught

Originally Posted by BBC Rolling News Feed

A 16-year-old looter from Manchester tells BBC 5 live he will continue participating in the violence and theft until he gets caught, because it is his first offence and nothing will happen.

At some stage society has to stop pandering to human rights namby pamby stuff and be prepared to lock people up for durations that make a real difference, not just offer petty slaps on the wrist community service, or meaningless fines that don't hurt these people in the first place because they haven't got money to pay them, and have so much free time because they don't do school, or are jobless. If that means jails are orvercrowded, tough, it's not supposed to be pleasant in there. So while we have the supposed party of law and order, conservatives, in charge with people like Kenneth Clarke then saying we need to cut sentences, the government in fact is creating the lax atmosphere leading to this situation.

One must also look at society's expectations of the police. On the one hand we want them to be robust. When they are inevitably you get all the complaints of human rights and stuff. One only has to look at the previous student protests when kettling was used. Society cannot have this both ways. If there are people out there intent on running amok then unfortunately all who are in the area will come under suspicion until proven otherwise.

One must also accept there are issues with how the legal system requires any one arrested to be dealt with. If a suspect is arrested then the officers involved will become involved with very time consuming custodial and evidence recording procedures. They won't be available to continue policing for many hours leaving their colleagues more thinly stretched. Is it any wonder therefore that sometimes the police in these situations didn't worry about the minor offences, especially if they are getting evidence they can use later in slow time, to wait for the most serious problems as they try and contain order.

People talk of using the army? I suggest not bringing them onto the streets, leave that to the police, but if there is now a problem with cell capacity, even in police stations or prisons, then use the army to create temporary holding areas, if need be putting the **** in tents. The could even be made to dig their own latrines.

And finally, what is happening now is not about any sort of social statement, it's about opportunism and organised theft. An awful lot of the looting is co-ordinated. The fires and stuff are often a distraction to get the authorities into a different place whilst just down the road the real value target is emptied This was the case in Croydon where the Reeves furniture shop was torched while a nearby Comet was emptied.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Gary L

True.
it'll work in the way that say one person is charged with smashing a shop window stealing hundreds of pounds worth of stuff and then setting fire to the place resulting in thousands of pounds worth of damage. getting a supervision order.

or at worst. insufficient evidence and no charges at all.

they have nothing to lose. the rewards outweigh the punishment to a lot of these people.

it's the same kind of thing where the more offences you commit in one go. you come better off than just commiting the one offence.

such as driving with no insurance, no MOT, no TAX, no licence. causing thousands of pounds worth of damage. nearly killing innocent people. and failing to stop for police.

in some cases you will get the same punishment as someone who has been stopped for driving with an illegal tyre and an expired tax disc.

The true test of tougher action which we're told is going to be taken is that the punishments truly reflect the crime. For example, IMHO anyone setting fire to property which is likely to be occupied is guilty of attempted murder and should be punished accordingly.

---------- Post added at 10:48 ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 ----------

Originally Posted by Rob

I haven't been following this thread in detail, but feel it's time to add my bit.

It is one thing people saying the police aren't doing enough, one needs to look a lot deeper at society. The reality is that the **** are running around without fear of anything happening even if they suffer the misfortune of getting caught

At some stage society has to stop pandering to human rights namby pamby stuff and be prepared to lock people up for durations that make a real difference, not just offer petty slaps on the wrist community service, or meaningless fines that don't hurt these people in the first place because they haven't got money to pay them, and have so much free time because they don't do school, or are jobless. If that means jails are orvercrowded, tough, it's not supposed to be pleasant in there. So while we have the supposed party of law and order, conservatives, in charge with people like Kenneth Clarke then saying we need to cut sentences, the government in fact is creating the lax atmosphere leading to this situation.

One must also look at society's expectations of the police. On the one hand we want them to be robust. When they are inevitably you get all the complaints of human rights and stuff. One only has to look at the previous student protests when kettling was used. Society cannot have this both ways. If there are people out there intent on running amok then unfortunately all who are in the area will come under suspicion until proven otherwise.

One must also accept there are issues with how the legal system requires any one arrested to be dealt with. If a suspect is arrested then the officers involved will become involved with very time consuming custodial and evidence recording procedures. They won't be available to continue policing for many hours leaving their colleagues more thinly stretched. Is it any wonder therefore that sometimes the police in these situations didn't worry about the minor offences, especially if they are getting evidence they can use later in slow time, to wait for the most serious problems as they try and contain order.

People talk of using the army? I suggest not bringing them onto the streets, leave that to the police, but if there is now a problem with cell capacity, even in police stations or prisons, then use the army to create temporary holding areas, if need be putting the **** in tents. The could even be made to dig their own latrines.

And finally, what is happening now is not about any sort of social statement, it's about opportunism and organised theft. An awful lot of the looting is co-ordinated. The fires and stuff are often a distraction to get the authorities into a different place whilst just down the road the real value target is emptied This was the case in Croydon where the Reeves furniture shop was torched while a nearby Comet was emptied.

Spot on! The sort of people who'll defend these people are the same who condemn the police whatever they do. As I stated in an earlier post, now that some of these people are seeing close up and personal the results of their efforts they may just think differently.

IMO the Army should be being used as support to allow the police to round up large numbers of troublemakers. Have soldiers transporting and guarding those detained/arrested in secure areas and let the police get on with restoring law and order on the front which is their job.

[devilincarnate]

Mayor of London Boris Johnson has told the BBC police budgets should not be cut, in the light of looting and disorder over the past few days.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today: "This is not a time to think about making substantial cuts in police numbers."

It puts the Conservative mayor at odds with the government - on Tuesday Theresa May said cuts could be made without affecting frontline services.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14470830

Originally Posted by Rob

And finally, what is happening now is not about any sort of social statement, it's about opportunism and organised theft. An awful lot of the looting is co-ordinated. The fires and stuff are often a distraction to get the authorities into a different place whilst just down the road the real value target is emptied This was the case in Croydon where the Reeves furniture shop was torched while a nearby Comet was emptied.

There is no social statement to the riots but that doesn't mean they were not born from a social problem. We need to look at why these youths did this, why they wanted to do this. As I mentioned before they clearly have no stake or respect in society. We need to try and instil this into them before they get to this stage, bring them into the fold, make them feel they have a future, and a reason to respect their communities.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by devilincarnate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14470830

If we have cuts they have to be well thought out so they do not badly affect important services which are crucial to us all.

---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 ----------

Originally Posted by Rob

I haven't been following this thread in detail, but feel it's time to add my bit.

It is one thing people saying the police aren't doing enough, one needs to look a lot deeper at society. The reality is that the **** are running around without fear of anything happening even if they suffer the misfortune of getting caught


At some stage society has to stop pandering to human rights namby pamby stuff and be prepared to lock people up for durations that make a real difference, not just offer petty slaps on the wrist community service, or meaningless fines that don't hurt these people in the first place because they haven't got money to pay them, and have so much free time because they don't do school, or are jobless. If that means jails are orvercrowded, tough, it's not supposed to be pleasant in there. So while we have the supposed party of law and order, conservatives, in charge with people like Kenneth Clarke then saying we need to cut sentences, the government in fact is creating the lax atmosphere leading to this situation.

One must also look at society's expectations of the police. On the one hand we want them to be robust. When they are inevitably you get all the complaints of human rights and stuff. One only has to look at the previous student protests when kettling was used. Society cannot have this both ways. If there are people out there intent on running amok then unfortunately all who are in the area will come under suspicion until proven otherwise.

One must also accept there are issues with how the legal system requires any one arrested to be dealt with. If a suspect is arrested then the officers involved will become involved with very time consuming custodial and evidence recording procedures. They won't be available to continue policing for many hours leaving their colleagues more thinly stretched. Is it any wonder therefore that sometimes the police in these situations didn't worry about the minor offences, especially if they are getting evidence they can use later in slow time, to wait for the most serious problems as they try and contain order.

People talk of using the army? I suggest not bringing them onto the streets, leave that to the police, but if there is now a problem with cell capacity, even in police stations or prisons, then use the army to create temporary holding areas, if need be putting the **** in tents. The could even be made to dig their own latrines.

And finally, what is happening now is not about any sort of social statement, it's about opportunism and organised theft. An awful lot of the looting is co-ordinated. The fires and stuff are often a distraction to get the authorities into a different place whilst just down the road the real value target is emptied This was the case in Croydon where the Reeves furniture shop was torched while a nearby Comet was emptied.

Excellent well thought out post.

[Sirius]

Originally Posted by Rob

I haven't been following this thread in detail, but feel it's time to add my bit.

It is one thing people saying the police aren't doing enough, one needs to look a lot deeper at society. The reality is that the **** are running around without fear of anything happening even if they suffer the misfortune of getting caught


At some stage society has to stop pandering to human rights namby pamby stuff and be prepared to lock people up for durations that make a real difference, not just offer petty slaps on the wrist community service, or meaningless fines that don't hurt these people in the first place because they haven't got money to pay them, and have so much free time because they don't do school, or are jobless. If that means jails are orvercrowded, tough, it's not supposed to be pleasant in there. So while we have the supposed party of law and order, conservatives, in charge with people like Kenneth Clarke then saying we need to cut sentences, the government in fact is creating the lax atmosphere leading to this situation.

One must also look at society's expectations of the police. On the one hand we want them to be robust. When they are inevitably you get all the complaints of human rights and stuff. One only has to look at the previous student protests when kettling was used. Society cannot have this both ways. If there are people out there intent on running amok then unfortunately all who are in the area will come under suspicion until proven otherwise.

One must also accept there are issues with how the legal system requires any one arrested to be dealt with. If a suspect is arrested then the officers involved will become involved with very time consuming custodial and evidence recording procedures. They won't be available to continue policing for many hours leaving their colleagues more thinly stretched. Is it any wonder therefore that sometimes the police in these situations didn't worry about the minor offences, especially if they are getting evidence they can use later in slow time, to wait for the most serious problems as they try and contain order.

People talk of using the army? I suggest not bringing them onto the streets, leave that to the police, but if there is now a problem with cell capacity, even in police stations or prisons, then use the army to create temporary holding areas, if need be putting the **** in tents. The could even be made to dig their own latrines.

And finally, what is happening now is not about any sort of social statement, it's about opportunism and organised theft. An awful lot of the looting is co-ordinated. The fires and stuff are often a distraction to get the authorities into a different place whilst just down the road the real value target is emptied This was the case in Croydon where the Reeves furniture shop was torched while a nearby Comet was emptied.

Excellent

[Osem]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

I've just ploughed my way through this thread and someone suggested water cannons with smart water. I'd be more direct: Water cannons loaded with indellible day-glo PINK dye*.

Firstly it'll wreak all their designer stuff and secondly the next day you can arrest anybody who has any trace of pink on them.

Demonstrating is legal, riot and looting are not and the full force of the law MUST be bought to bear on the ****. Riot carries upto a 10 year tarrif so let's see some exemplary scentencing. As for the lack of prison places they had a solution for that in WW2: Make the prisoners build their own prison camp.

*Non poisonous and eco friendly naturally.

Don't know about you but I don't want my high street all pink for weeks/months so why not use Smartwater to mark the villains instead?

Perhaps the makers could rename their product 'idiotwater' just for the purpose...