Assisted Suicide. - Page 4

danielf · 14-06-2011, 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Discourage yes, prevent no.

There's a difference between not preventing abuse and something being abused 'left-right-and-centre'. There is no system that is 100% abuse proof. We need to weigh the probability of abuse against people's 'right' to die in dignity. So far, it appears there is very little (if any) abuse in countries where assisted suicide is allowed. Why have the apparently unfounded fear of abuse prevent people from dying in dignity?

Russ · 14-06-2011, 22:45

Society is far too focussed on money-grabbing. Compensation culture et al. There are enough unscrupulous people in this country to almost ensure it will happen.

danielf · 14-06-2011, 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Society is far too focussed on money-grabbing. Compensation culture et al. There are enough unscrupulous people in this country to almost ensure it will happen.

Frankly, I doubt that the UK is so different from other countries to make impossible here what is possible elsewhere. Hell, it's legal in some states in the US, the home of compensation culture...

denphone · 15-06-2011, 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Nope, no way, never.

I'm not saying it's going to be easy watching a loved one in pain and suffering but making this sort of thing legal would be abused left-right-and-centre when some people get an idea there's an inheritance in it for them.

I'm sorry Russ but any inheritance would be the last thing on my mind and seeing your family or close relatives suffer is heartbreaking.

Russ · 15-06-2011, 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone

I'm sorry Russ but any inheritance would be the last thing on my mind and seeing your family or close relatives suffer is heartbreaking.

Don't think I said you would be after anyone's inheritance.

TheDaddy · 15-06-2011, 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielf

I don't think there's much evidence of it being abused 'left-right-and-centrre' in countries where it is legal.

You're joking in you're own country they allow people feeling depressed to be put down, if that's not an abuse I don't know what is.

Bosscher wanted to die. She refused treatment for her depression, claiming that her mental suffering was such that nothing would help. Dr. Boudewijn Chabot was acquitted of assisted suicide because the patient was rational and had not been diagnosed with any psychiatric illness. Thereafter, the Dutch guidelines included information advocating that physicians be allowed to assist depressed people to commit suicide.

http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/57...THERLANDS.html

denphone · 15-06-2011, 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Don't think I said you would be after anyone's inheritance.

l know that Russ but l do not think there would be much abuse on any new law if it was to come in.

Russ · 15-06-2011, 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone

l know that Russ but l do not think there would be much abuse on any new law if it was to come in.

And I think there would be. Neither of us are right or wrong as both our opinions are based on supposition.

Kymmy · 15-06-2011, 08:16

I presume that if assisted suicide ever did become legal in this country it would be on a permission basis with checks, examinations and only permissible in certain circumstances..

denphone · 15-06-2011, 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

And I think there would be. Neither of us are right or wrong as both our opinions are based on supposition.

Yes our opinions are based on suppostion but its good l think for people to bring this difficult subject up for more discussion and debate.

---------- Post added at 08:26 ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy

I presume that if assisted suicide ever did become legal in this country it would be on a permission basis with checks, examinations and only permissible in certain circumstances..

Absolutely.

danielf · 15-06-2011, 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You're joking in you're own country they allow people feeling depressed to be put down, if that's not an abuse I don't know what is.

Bosscher wanted to die. She refused treatment for her depression, claiming that her mental suffering was such that nothing would help. Dr. Boudewijn Chabot was acquitted of assisted suicide because the patient was rational and had not been diagnosed with any psychiatric illness. Thereafter, the Dutch guidelines included information advocating that physicians be allowed to assist depressed people to commit suicide.

http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/57...THERLANDS.html

To be honest, I'm not familiar with the details of that (relatively old) case, though I would agree that assisted suicide on the basis of mental suffering is contentious. However, reading Dutch media on a regular (daily) basis, I don't recall any high profile dubious cases being reported in the last 10 years. On that basis, I would say that abuse is not rife. Furthermore, I have no reason to believe there have been any cases where the system has been abused for monetary reasons, as was suggested by another poster.

On that basis, I see no reason why it couldn't be implemented in the UK, at least where physical suffering is involved. The (non-representative) poll here suggests that many people agree it should be allowed.

KymC · 15-06-2011, 11:05

I watched the documentary and was very moved by it. Peter Smedley was going to die anyway as a result of having MND. But by choosing when he should die meant that he was able to avoid the increased pain and suffering that lay ahead of him coupled with the indignity of it. This way he was able to have a dignified death with his wife close by and his wife was spared the pain of watching him suffer later.

It is obvious by that paragraph that I think assisted suicide should be legalised in this country. I do not think that a person should be forced to endure pain and suffering if it is known, unequivocally, that there will be no chance of recovery.

In the case of Anthony Bland, who was injured in the Hillsborough disaster and as a result was left with a condition of persistent vegetative state (PVS), it was decided that as he was beyond recovery, life-sustaining treatment should be stopped. Anthony did not and could not make this decision, as he had no awareness. It was made for him by those treating him and by his family. The decision was made with the aim of letting Anthony end his life and die peacefully, with dignity and with as little pain as possible.

Yet, in contrast, in the case of Diane Pretty, who had Motor Neurons Disease (MND) which we know has no cure and results in death, but not before a degree of pain, suffering and indignity, was informed by the courts that her husband could not assist in her suicide without the consequence of prosecution. (Diane Pretty was by this time physically unable to take her own life due to the progression of the MND).

Here, a woman who is of sound mind and intellect, making a choice to have help dying for reasons that the courts deemed valid in the case of Bland, even though it wasn’t he himself that made the choice, is refused.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2600923.stm

Obviously, there would have to be many checks and balances in place in order to protect the vulnerable. The person wishing to die must be terminally ill, with no chance of recovery, be of sound mind, not being coerced etc. The DPP’s interim policy has some points on it, which could be incorporated in to the checks and balance procedures should assisted suicide be legalised.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/journals/...ion/index.html

There is always the fear of systems being abused, but that is what the checks and balances would be for. For something like this to be legalised, procedures would have to exhaustive.

I believe that every individual should have the right and freedom to make the choice and to be assisted with that choice if necessary. It is wholly unfair that an able bodied person of sound mind can make that choice and follow through on it but that someone who is physically unable but still sound of mind can make the same choice but is discriminated against in being able to follow through because they require assistance.

Russ · 15-06-2011, 12:58

I don't think anyone would be reckless enough to suggest that watching a loved one in terminal pain is going to be easy especially if they're prepared to be allowed to die - I think this is reflected in the courts as IIRC there have been cases when the CPS have chosen to not go ahead when someone has admitted helping a spouse to die when in serious and untreatable pain. If it was someone close to me then obviously I would find it hard to disagree with assisted suicide and I truly sympathise with anyone in that position.

I don't think it is possible to totally safeguard against people with financial gain in mind when it comes to this. I'm not going to say it would be easy to pull the wool over peoples' eyes but how often do we hear of someone scamming and raiding an elderly person's savings when they had power of attorney over their affairs and were supposed to be looking after them? The jump from that to this is not a big one in my opinion even though it may turn out to be a rare occurrence. But even so, I am very uncomfortable with the notion of anyone assisting a death even if morally (and possibly legally) they are doing the 'right' thing.

denphone · 15-06-2011, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

I don't think anyone would be reckless enough to suggest that watching a loved one in terminal pain is going to be easy especially if they're prepared to be allowed to die - I think this is reflected in the courts as IIRC there have been cases when the CPS have chosen to not go ahead when someone has admitted helping a spouse to die when in serious and untreatable pain. If it was someone close to me then obviously I would find it hard to disagree with assisted suicide and I truly sympathise with anyone in that position.

I don't think it is possible to totally safeguard against people with financial gain in mind when it comes to this. I'm not going to say it would be easy to pull the wool over peoples' eyes but how often do we hear of someone scamming and raiding an elderly person's savings when they had power of attorney over their affairs and were supposed to be looking after them? The jump from that to this is not a big one in my opinion even though it may turn out to be a rare occurrence. But even so, I am very uncomfortable with the notion of anyone assisting a death even if morally (and possibly legally) they are doing the 'right' thing.

l respect your side of the discussion Russ but l still disagree with you on this.

danielf · 15-06-2011, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

I don't think anyone would be reckless enough to suggest that watching a loved one in terminal pain is going to be easy especially if they're prepared to be allowed to die - I think this is reflected in the courts as IIRC there have been cases when the CPS have chosen to not go ahead when someone has admitted helping a spouse to die when in serious and untreatable pain. If it was someone close to me then obviously I would find it hard to disagree with assisted suicide and I truly sympathise with anyone in that position.

I don't think it is possible to totally safeguard against people with financial gain in mind when it comes to this. I'm not going to say it would be easy to pull the wool over peoples' eyes but how often do we hear of someone scamming and raiding an elderly person's savings when they had power of attorney over their affairs and were supposed to be looking after them? The jump from that to this is not a big one in my opinion even though it may turn out to be a rare occurrence. But even so, I am very uncomfortable with the notion of anyone assisting a death even if morally (and possibly legally) they are doing the 'right' thing.

I would think that allowing a spouse or relative in assisting in suicide would probably be risky. Allowing a GP or (panel of) medical experts that have no personal relation to the patient in question to assist would be a safer bet imo.