[Update] ALL 20>30Mb upgrade discussion

[Chrysalis]

I still dont understand.

VM do not need to make a low end product competitive with BT's flagship product.

So why do VM need to increase one of their low end products when their flagship product already beat's BT's flagship product?

Incidently its not to do with FTTC, as 30mbit still loses to infinity.

[Traduk]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I still dont understand.

VM do not need to make a low end product competitive with BT's flagship product.

So why do VM need to increase one of their low end products when their flagship product already beat's BT's flagship product?

Incidently its not to do with FTTC, as 30mbit still loses to infinity.

Look at it from a real world perspective instead of flagship to flagship. I have 20meg down and 2megs up and in a few weeks when Infinity reaches a place (cabinet) 50 metres from me I will be able to get at least 30megs down and 6megs up for the same money as my current VM offering.

At the 20meg tier VM will be inferior to Infinity and as they are comparably priced, Infinity looks to be a superior product.

You can think of the comparison as analogous with cars. If Infinity's flagship product is superior to and the same price as VM's mid range product, which one attracts interest from a value for money perspective.

If value for money is not of concern but bragging rights rule then VM wins hands down.

VM cannot let the 20meg product stay as it is because I would bet that there are a fair percentage of users on that tier who have no interest in 50 or 100 but might be tempted by more for same money from Infinity. BT are aggressively selling Infinity (where available) and not only supply and fit kit for free but will even waive install charges on new lines, if required.

The skirmishes are starting and the war for customers is commencing but judging by my experience with retentions, last week, VM are complacent. The rep checked Infinity roll out for my address and blanked everything I said as the roll out is weeks away. I will wait until Infinity is available and if they still have a no compromise attitude, then without compromise I will be gone.

[Chrysalis]

you have included line rental's and other factors into this?

infinity is barely available in 1/3rd of cabled areas at present and will only be available to just over half when their planned rollout is done.

I repeat my previous point, boosting 20mbit to 30mbit is pointless. if a customer is going to move because infinity is faster they will still move as 40 beats 30 just as 40 beats 20.

I am more inclined to think this has these 2 purposes.

1 - to tie people in to new contracts for upgrading.
2 - a way to get people to use the new superhub which will then make it easier to get them to upgrade to higher tiers in future.

To be honest you sound the type of customer I wouldnt want anyway, the type who is a mercenary with no loyalty moving around to wherever the best deal is at a time. These are the customers who force quality downwards. I have always considered retentions overly soft not the other way round. So you want more speed for less money regardless of how practical it is to supply it to you at that cost. However dont worry I am sure retentions will cave in to your demands and you will get what you want. If not the CEO office will.

[whizzard]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

you have included line rental's and other factors into this?

infinity is barely available in 1/3rd of cabled areas at present and will only be available to just over half when their planned rollout is done.

I repeat my previous point, boosting 20mbit to 30mbit is pointless. if a customer is going to move because infinity is faster they will still move as 40 beats 30 just as 40 beats 20.

I am more inclined to think this has these 2 purposes.

1 - to tie people in to new contracts for upgrading.
2 - a way to get people to use the new superhub which will then make it easier to get them to upgrade to higher tiers in future.

It's partly those two points, its also to compete against an increasingly competitive landscape as more and more areas become ADSL2+ and Annex-M enabled and more providers offer these services via LLU or WBC.

Obviously you would need to practically on top of an exchange to achieve 24mb d/s and 2.5mb u/s but believe it or not some people will still go to ADSL even when they live in a cabled area. This coupled with the increasing rollout of Infinity will be some of the factors as to why it's occuring.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by whizzard

believe it or not some people will still go to ADSL even when they live in a cabled area.

We were one of the first estates to be dug up and installed with cable and every single house can get a cable connection but some people still go with the likes of BT and SKY and receive less than 2Mb as we as far from a BT exchange as you can get.

You do wonder why they would go for the slower option when cable is available to them.

[whizzard]

Originally Posted by Masque

We were one of the first estates to be dug up and installed with cable and every single house can get a cable connection but some people still go with the likes of BT and SKY and receive less than 2Mb as we as far from a BT exchange as you can get.

You do wonder why they would go for the slower option when cable is available to them.

I know in some new builds estates that the services available are down to whomever the contractor chooses to partner with (in a lot of cases BT or Sky) This is an area that until recently Virgin have seemingly somewhat missed out on, but seem to now be doing about with their recently announced agreements with some of the more well known homebuilder companies.

[indie1982]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I am more inclined to think this has these 2 purposes.

1 - to tie people in to new contracts for upgrading.
2 - a way to get people to use the new superhub which will then make it easier to get them to upgrade to higher tiers in future.

I specifically asked the question when I called them back regarding my 30Mb order and was told the 30Mb upgrade does not tie you into a new lengthy contract.

Could someone from VM confirm that?

[Chrysalis]

if 30mbit doesnt tie you in I would be surprised as that breaks with past procedures.

[whizzard]

Originally Posted by indie1982

I specifically asked the question when I called them back regarding my 30Mb order and was told the 30Mb upgrade does not tie you into a new lengthy contract.

Could someone from VM confirm that?

Until everything is officially announced, it remains to be seen as you cannot even guarantee the terms and conditions on the page that was accidentally revealed will be the final T&Cs until it's set in stone. Would imagine re-contracting to not be the case though.

[Traduk]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

you have included line rental's and other factors into this?

infinity is barely available in 1/3rd of cabled areas at present and will only be available to just over half when their planned rollout is done.

I repeat my previous point, boosting 20mbit to 30mbit is pointless. if a customer is going to move because infinity is faster they will still move as 40 beats 30 just as 40 beats 20.

I am more inclined to think this has these 2 purposes.

1 - to tie people in to new contracts for upgrading.
2 - a way to get people to use the new superhub which will then make it easier to get them to upgrade to higher tiers in future.

To be honest you sound the type of customer I wouldnt want anyway, the type who is a mercenary with no loyalty moving around to wherever the best deal is at a time. These are the customers who force quality downwards. I have always considered retentions overly soft not the other way round. So you want more speed for less money regardless of how practical it is to supply it to you at that cost. However dont worry I am sure retentions will cave in to your demands and you will get what you want. If not the CEO office will.

Thanks to what was NTL's gross unreliability in the past I do have a BT line (always had one) and ADSL.

Yes I have factored in line rental and included the VM line rental for a phone which I never use. When all costs are factored into the equation VM are losing competitiveness against other offerings.

Assumptions about my loyalty have you way wide of the mark. I have been on cable since Cabletel back in the days of analogue TV and dial up. I was one of the early adopters of the new fangled broadband so I have been with VM and its predecessors for years.

Apart from appallingly bad service often for months at a time, VM have twice allowed me to carry on paying much higher rental than was needed. I was an early adopter of V+. paid £150 installation and then £10 per month rental for 18 months whilst people paying half that install fee were rent free. They also put my ad hoc packages into a bundle at a reduction of £8 per month but months after the introduction of bundles. I had to jump through a number of hurdles to get a retentions deal which over time would have redressed the well over £200 they allowed me to wastefully give to them. That deal is now worth almost nothing due to deliberate erosion on VM's part.

In contrast BT call me every couple of years to review my costs and if applicable offer a deal which on the last change saw a call plan implemented that brought about a monthly saving of £100+ (we use the phone a lot).

A nil cost call plan is included in Infinity (UK calls up to 1 hour) which pulls their costs in line with VM 20meg. VM would only implement a call plan on their phone with loss of the remaining retentions deal plus a 12 month contract.

IMO VM are not a company that I would do business with if direct competition was in place. They have little understanding of plain English and through spin have distorted facts into some sort of alternative reality. Everything they do has some sort of gotcha attached to it and free as in the 20 to 30 upgrade is not a big deal but when something costs something (for any reason) free it ain't.

If I do not get a deal I am gone and if you had been through what I have endured over years you might think as I do.

[Chrysalis]

I agree with you on they spin a lot and yeah their service leads a lot to be desired, I just made the comment based on its a simple take it or leave it, and if you dont like the price can go elsewhere rather then demanding they give a drop in price. VM will meet the infinity price for you, they always crumble.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by whizzard

I know in some new builds estates that the services available are down to whomever the contractor chooses to partner with (in a lot of cases BT or Sky) This is an area that until recently Virgin have seemingly somewhat missed out on, but seem to now be doing about with their recently announced agreements with some of the more well known homebuilder companies.

We were not a new build at the time the estate was 20 years old but we have tarmac pavements which will have been of benefit to the installers when laying out the ducting.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by whizzard

Obviously you would need to practically on top of an exchange to achieve 24mb d/s and 2.5mb u/s but believe it or not some people will still go to ADSL even when they live in a cabled area. This coupled with the increasing rollout of Infinity will be some of the factors as to why it's occuring.

Yes, sorry about that, I did try cable, both 20Mb and 50Mb but the outages and performance degradations forced my hand to a considerably slower ADSL2+ service that has had downtime in the minutes in about a year, compared with VM's downtime which was measured in the weeks in about 8 months

---------- Post added at 14:46 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

Originally Posted by Masque

We were one of the first estates to be dug up and installed with cable and every single house can get a cable connection but some people still go with the likes of BT and SKY and receive less than 2Mb as we as far from a BT exchange as you can get.

You do wonder why they would go for the slower option when cable is available to them.

For some people 2Mb is still quite acceptable. If it were just about speed Virgin's market share would be higher and they wouldn't have dropped their prices on their broadband products repeatedly.

[Peter_]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

For some people 2Mb is still quite acceptable. If it were just about speed Virgin's market share would be higher and they wouldn't have dropped their prices on their broadband products repeatedly.

They could probably get 10Mb for a similar price.

[telfordcable]

when is 30 meg/3 meg available ? why isn't 10 meg offer a free upgrade to 15 meg.

I think VM should be doing this way:

10Meg free upgrade to 15/1.5
20Meg free upgrade to 30/3
50Meg free upgrade to 60/6
100Meg 100/10
200Meg 200/20