Students Rioting in London.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by martyh

I don't think any amount of protesting will change the govs plan ,and nor it should imo .The biggest problem we have is that there are too many people going to university who will never use the degrees they get ,it's just a big party to them ,basically just an extension to school and something to do before they grow up .

I agree that sometimes that's the case, however many degrees require more work than a full time job. I don't think it's fair to tar them all with the same brush.

University education should be a privelidge not a right and should be paid for .

In my opinion, university education is a necessity of society. Everyone benefits from education. Just imagine what life would be like without technology and modern medicine ? It would be like being back in the stone age. In fact, we've always had an equivalent of many of the professions we have today. Professions such as merchants, soldiers, bankers, salesman, etc - even going back thousands of years. The main difference is the education/knowledge base.

In my opinion the government should be approaching future employers to help fund university education ,that way only degrees that are worth something will be taken and only people who are commited will take them

I think thats a good idea in priciple, but in practise it could be difficult to put into effect. I think what is more likely to happen, is that we'll be importing more of our talent in the years to come. Other countries are investing more in education, so its inevitable that we'll fall behind.

Back to the discussion of Jody McIntyre, I found this video interesting :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...rt-of-comments

He may not be right all the time, but I agree with a lot of what he says. I completely agree with him when he mentions about the government not being held accountable for its actions for 4 years after every election, and about the similarity between the different parties for important issues. Labour introduced fees, the Tories increased them....Very true.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

In my opinion, university education is a necessity of society. Everyone benefits from education. Just imagine what life would be like without technology and modern medicine ? It would be like being back in the stone age. In fact, we've always had an equivalent of many of the professions we have today. Professions such as merchants, soldiers, bankers, salesman, etc - even going back thousands of years. The main difference is the education/knowledge base.

University education is necessary; universal university education (or anything even approaching it) definitely is not.

When Labour started an ideological drive to get 50% of all young people into university, the universities started dreaming up worthless courses to keep them all busy when they arrived.

We now have vast numbers of people who are highly qualified in nothing much at all, and half the population of Poland repairing our burst pipes. We need to recognise that people are different, their educational needs are different. Achieving equality does not consist in making everybody the same.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I agree that sometimes that's the case, however many degrees require more work than a full time job. I don't think it's fair to tar them all with the same brush.

.

i don't believe i have ,that certainly wasn't the intention .My son is just entering the system and i will make damn sure he will be working as hard as he can

In my opinion, university education is a necessity of society. Everyone benefits from education. Just imagine what life would be like without technology and modern medicine ? It would be like being back in the stone age. In fact, we've always had an equivalent of many of the professions we have today. Professions such as merchants, soldiers, bankers, salesman, etc - even going back thousands of years. The main difference is the education/knowledge base.

It is a fallacy to think that in order to gain a good job with a good salary you will have to go through the university system .A lot of students are under the misguided belief that gaining a degree is a shortcut to a high paid job ,granted we need professionals that will need to go to a university but it should not be used as an extension to everyone's education ,i repeat my earlier statement ..too many people go to university

I think that's a good idea in principle, but in practise it could be difficult to put into effect. I think what is more likely to happen, is that we'll be importing more of our talent in the years to come. Other countries are investing more in education, so its inevitable that we'll fall behind.

I disagree ,it would be quite simple to deduct money from employers who have graduates working for them .A company would have to pay a percentage of the debt whilst that graduate is with the company .if the graduate moves on then the next company picks up the debt

He may not be right all the time, but I agree with a lot of what he says. I completely agree with him when he mentions about the government not being held accountable for its actions for 4 years after every election, and about the similarity between the different parties for important issues. Labour introduced fees, the Tories increased them....Very true.

Labour introduced them to enable more people to go to university ,to stop it being so elitist ,the present government increased them because the previous government got us into so much debt paying for the ideals only they thought we needed ,by that i mean ,i am not sure that we needed so many people to go to unuversity in the first place ,they should have concentrated on trades ,apprentiships rather than worthless degrees

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Chris

who are highly qualified in nothing much at all, and half the population of Poland repairing our burst pipes. We need to recognise that people are different, their educational needs are different. Achieving equality does not consist in making everybody the same.

I don't know what percentage of students fall into that category, but it would be interesting to know. Most students I knew at uni were studying for either a science, business or social science degree. Believe me, we used to rip the p!ss out of the ones doing a social science degree, but I recall that they were a small percentage of students. Couldn't put a number on it though.

Lets just say for arguments sake that 50% of students are studying for worthless degrees. In that case, I think we have only ourselves to blame.
If these students could handle calculus, they wouldn't be studying for a worthless degree. I blame our failing school system, and we are ultimately responsible for that, rather than the students.

I am reminded by this debate on what my brother said after interviewing a number of graduates which was "they still cannot organise a pee up in a brewery, but most of them can spell it". He is an employer quite a large one and there is certainly little respect from him towards many graduates these days. I think we are in serious danger of becoming a snobbish lazy country where things like plumbing, carpentry and suchlike are viewed as being beneath people despite the fact they are high skilled jobs.

Many of these students would probably have been far better off doing something like that then going to uni and doing courses in sod all as many of them are. I am not tarring them all with the same brush there are many worthwhile productive degree's with people studying to get them but there are a hell of a lot of useless one's that will never be any real benefit.

I grew up as i have said before to believe uni was the place for the brightest and best to go on and further their knowledge but that isn't the case now being blunt any idiot can get there waste a few yeras of their life and come out with a bit of paper worth less then a sheet of andrex and labour played a very big part in that.

Social engineering experiments by government are a lousy thing to do never end well and some poor sod has to come along and clear up the mess, well the mess we have now we have a government trying to clear it up.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I am reminded by this debate on what my brother said after interviewing a number of graduates which was "they still cannot organise a pee up in a brewery, but most of them can spell it". He is an employer quite a large one and there is certainly little respect from him towards many graduates these days. I think we are in serious danger of becoming a snobbish lazy country where things like plumbing, carpentry and suchlike are viewed as being beneath people despite the fact they are high skilled jobs.

Many of these students would probably have been far better off doing something like that then going to uni and doing courses in sod all as many of them are. I am not tarring them all with the same brush there are many worthwhile productive degree's with people studying to get them but there are a hell of a lot of useless one's that will never be any real benefit.

I grew up as i have said before to believe uni was the place for the brightest and best to go on and further their knowledge but that isn't the case now being blunt any idiot can get there waste a few yeras of their life and come out with a bit of paper worth less then a sheet of andrex and labour played a very big part in that.

Social engineering experiments by government are a lousy thing to do never end well and some poor sod has to come along and clear up the mess, well the mess we have now we have a government trying to clear it up.

my own experience will attest to that Rizzy

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by martyh

I disagree ,it would be quite simple to deduct money from employers who have graduates working for them .A company would have to pay a percentage of the debt whilst that graduate is with the company .if the graduate moves on then the next company picks up the debt

The reason I think it would be difficult to put into practise is because of the additional challenges that would need to be overcome.
For instance, why would a company employ a UK student with a student debt only to have to pay a percentage of the debt, when they could employ a foreign equivalent with no debt?
The other way it could work would be if the company didn't pay it, just deducted 5% of the salary and paid it towards the student debt, but then we're back to the graduate tax.
If companies were to indeed shoulder the cost, then our companies would become less competitive due to the extra expense, and our companies are already struggling to compete. Consider a large corporation that employs tens of thousands of people, rather than fork out a fortune for new recruits - they may be more likely to move operations to China. Like so many are already doing these days.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Sparkle

This is what the police have to say about the student protestors and the public in general:
http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com...for-christmas/

Some of the comments made (by those we pay to protect us) are quite despicable. Usernames like "maniac cop", "Serpico" and "Rambo" should be no surprise and give some insight into what is going on in their minds.

It seems they don't want anyone protesting, even if it is peaceful. But if protestors do exercise their democratic right to protest, they want to make the experience so unpleasant for them that they'll think twice before demonstrating again. The police seem to see it as an "us vs them" issue, which I find rather disgusting if I can be quite honest.
A rather sobering reminder of what this country is turning into.

As for Jody McKintyre, the guy has cerebral palsy FFS ! He can't wheel himself, he has to be pushed around, so if he was rolling towards the police it was because he was being pushed. They pulled him our of his chair because of something he said, end of. Derek, he was no threat to anyone, and the fact that the officer(s) in question haven't been yet been sacked (let alone suspended) is shambolic !
The adage "The Law: Unto Themselves", springs to mind.

Originally Posted by Sirius

So i take it you have made up your mind about SOME of the people behind the usernames on here even thou you have never met them in person. Your good you are.

Not the solution one would really want from the police:

Taff Taff
Yeah won’t be over soon but could all be solved by a few marksman on roof tops and a few well placed head shots.

on December 9, 2010 at 6:38 pm Fee
I don’t think you can hurt a student by hitting them on the head.

on December 9, 2010 at 6:49 pm Taff Taff
Good point, get chainsaws and cut thief legs off then. That will slow them down a bit

Originally Posted by Sparkle

As for Jody McKintyre, the guy has cerebral palsy FFS ! He can't wheel himself, he has to be pushed around, so if he was rolling towards the police it was because he was being pushed.

If you're suggesting that he was in that place at that time against his will, you're totally deluded. McIntyre was being pushed by his brother and the pair of them knew exactly what they wanted to achieve.

And his CP is not so severe as to prevent him getting to the top of Millbank Tower during the earlier protest.

They pulled him our of his chair because of something he said, end of. Derek, he was no threat to anyone, and the fact that the officer(s) in question haven't been yet been sacked (let alone suspended) is shambolic !
The adage "The Law: Unto Themselves", springs to mind.

"End Of" isn't for you to decide, no matter how emphatic you are. The IPCC is looking at a range of incidents from the day - conveniently this seems to have excused McIntyre from having to follow up his media posturing with hard action.

My take on this is that McIntyre is a tinpot revolutionary that barely has a clue what the word means and went bleating to the left-wing Press as soon as the going got tough.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by Stuart

Sorry, but I cannot agree with that. Violence is *never* justified. Personally, I don't think the people who started the violence were in it for anything but the chance to give someone a kicking (I would say "Police", but, tbh, I doubt they were that fussy). Also, if what you say is correct, they ran as soon as the police started to respond. That isn't the action of someone who truly believes in the the protest. That is cowardice.

What; never, ever?

I think most people following this thread are aware of the general context of the discussion Flyboy ... however I suspect we're about to watch you trying to play word games with Stuart. Please, please don't bother, it's very tiresome.

[Flyboy]

Originally Posted by VMboy

Should have been used the first time of asking.

Yes, of course, that really is the solution, isn't it? I thought violence was never justified?

More of Mr McIntyre's wisdom - blog

we must contextualise the reporting of the interviewer, Ben Brown. Mr. Brown recently served as an embedded reporter with the British army in Iraq. A country which we are responsible for destroying, and for killing a million of it’s people. Ben Brown was a member of the occupying forces. In my view, this amounts to support for the invasion.

btw, recently means 2003, apparently; and I wonder how he equates that with the fact that Ben Brown won the Bayeux War Correspondent Award for his coverage of the Intifada in Israel (does that make him, in Mr McIntyre's eyes, a supporter of Hamas?).

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

Originally Posted by Flyboy

Yes, of course, that really is the solution, isn't it? I thought violence was never justified?

You appear to be using one person's comments against another poster....

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

What; never, ever?

In terms of protests. No.
Beyond that, I will not be drawn into your word games.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Chris

If you're suggesting that he was in that place at that time against his will, you're totally deluded. McIntyre was being pushed by his brother and the pair of them knew exactly what they wanted to achieve.

And his CP is not so severe as to prevent him getting to the top of Millbank Tower during the earlier protest.

"End Of" isn't for you to decide, no matter how emphatic you are. The IPCC is looking at a range of incidents from the day - conveniently this seems to have excused McIntyre from having to follow up his media posturing with hard action.

My take on this is that McIntyre is a tinpot revolutionary that barely has a clue what the word means and went bleating to the left-wing Press as soon as the going got tough.

Yes..."totally deluded" is an entirely appropriate choice of words to describe what is clearly your own misunderstanding of what I'd said.

I never said Jody was a hostage taken to the demo against his will.

Can you just confirm whether or not you believe the police acted professionally and measured in their handling of Jody McIntyre ?

If the answer is yes, really?? I cannot understand how anyone can defend their actions, I would've thought most people who consider themselves friends of the police would write the incident off as the actions of rogue elements within the police force. But to actually defend what we clearly see in the footage, I cannot understand. Jody has CP, his life compared to your cushy life is probably rather hellish. He wasn't a threat to anyone at the demo, and if anyone disagrees then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

BTW, do you actually believe the IPCC are independent ?